Why can't we all just get along...


#1

After much discussion with my two best friends who belong to the dutch reformed church. (Calvinist) I have come to the conclusion that as a Catholic I am more tolerant then them. They don't have to accept our doctrine, but for crying out loud if you are going to be telling your children what Catholics are, at least get it right. I found out that MY best friend, who knows better, tells her kids that Catholics don't love Jesus like they are suppose to and we worship and pray to Saints.

So here is my question. For all you Catholics and Non Catholics, is this common?

We don't have to believe in each others church but for crying out loud at least get it right. Why do we have to spread such disease among each other. Do you know how much we Catholics and Protestants could accomplish in the Government and Social Issues?

Is anyone else getting sick of the fighting among each other?

Pray for peace......


#2

[quote="JillianRose, post:1, topic:313800"]
After much discussion with my two best friends who belong to the dutch reformed church. (Calvinist) I have come to the conclusion that as a Catholic I am more tolerant then them. They don't have to accept our doctrine, but for crying out loud if you are going to be telling your children what Catholics are, at least get it right. I found out that MY best friend, who knows better, tells her kids that Catholics don't love Jesus like they are suppose to and we worship and pray to Saints.

So here is my question. For all you Catholics and Non Catholics, is this common?

We don't have to believe in each others church but for crying out loud at least get it right. Why do we have to spread such disease among each other. Do you know how much we Catholics and Protestants could accomplish in the Government and Social Issues?

Is anyone else getting sick of the fighting among each other?

Pray for peace......

[/quote]

I am so sick of it but still welcome it for some odd reason. I do not know if I believe I can change their mind or what, but it gets old as well. Just the other day my sister-in-law (Baptist) learned from my wife that we are sending our oldest son to a Catholic school. She asked me why we are sending him to "Cathoolic Schooool." I answered back that I wanted my children to get a wonderful education that involved God and Church. If my wife and I decided to send him to a Protestant school, there would have been nothing said.

I always say that if you are against something....know why you are exactly against it and not because someone told you to be against it. I come across many non Catholics who are against the Church for issues that aren't even true. The most common one is "You place Mary above Jesus!" Ugh lol


#3

I find this curious. I live in a country with an overhelmingly Lutheran population, the total number of Catholics in Finland being a few thousand (I have in my whole life met one Finnish Catholic). I think that in these circumstances it is natural that there are lot of prejudices and ignorance about Catholicism, and also some curiosity (the reason I am here).

But you in the USA live in such a multicultural society that interactions with people having different faiths are daily and unavoidable, and personal friendships are formed across the boundaries of faith (a relatively uncommon thing in Finland, the people you know are Lutherans or even more Lutherans). That should rub off some misunderstandings.

But, it appears to be also vice versa. I have a couple of times times in CAF been told that I, or at least Martin Luther, have left the Only True Church founded by Christ. No need to hear then anymore what I might (together with Martin Luther) have to say, except responding in a contentious (and some times contemptious) spirit. Luckily these have been exceptions. Mostly I have met frendliness and patience.


#4

[quote="JillianRose, post:1, topic:313800"]
After much discussion with my two best friends who belong to the dutch reformed church. (Calvinist) I have come to the conclusion that as a Catholic I am more tolerant then them. They don't have to accept our doctrine, but for crying out loud if you are going to be telling your children what Catholics are, at least get it right. I found out that MY best friend, who knows better, tells her kids that Catholics don't love Jesus like they are suppose to and we worship and pray to Saints.

So here is my question. For all you Catholics and Non Catholics, is this common?

We don't have to believe in each others church but for crying out loud at least get it right. Why do we have to spread such disease among each other. Do you know how much we Catholics and Protestants could accomplish in the Government and Social Issues?

Is anyone else getting sick of the fighting among each other?

Pray for peace......

[/quote]

Yes, I am sick of the jabs and misconceptions as well.

On New Year's Eve we were invited to a friend's house for a casual get-together. They had guests from out of town that I had never met before and I didn't know who they were.

We were making light conversation about this and that and she purposely steered the conversation toward religion and proceeded to bash the Catholic Church with one misconception after another. (She obviously knew about me even though I hadn't a clue about her).

I answered each insulting comment as she threw them at me, but she didn't want to hear what I had to say. She (and her family) belong to a Bible Church and she said things that were outrageous.
I didn't appreciate being ambushed like that and because it was supposed to be a party I feel she was behaving in a totally unacceptable manner.

In a million years, I would never do that to another person at a party...or anywhere else for that matter. :mad:


#5

[quote="Attejohannes, post:3, topic:313800"]
I find this curious. I live in a country with an overhelmingly Lutheran population, the total number of Catholics in Finland being a few thousand (I have in my whole life met one Finnish Catholic). I think that in these circumstances it is natural that there are lot of prejudices and ignorance about Catholicism, and also some curiosity (the reason I am here).

But you in the USA live in such a multicultural society that interactions with people having different faiths are daily and unavoidable, and personal friendships are formed across the boundaries of faith (a relatively uncommon thing in Finland, the people you know are Lutherans or even more Lutherans). That should rub off some misunderstandings.

But, it appears to be also vice versa. I have a couple of times times in CAF been told that I, or at least Martin Luther, have left the Only True Church founded by Christ. No need to hear then anymore what I might (together with Martin Luther) have to say, except responding in a contentious (and some times contemptious) spirit. Luckily these have been exceptions. Mostly I have met frendliness and patience.

[/quote]

I love my Lutheran Brothers. It was a Lutheran who help keep me Catholic. Poor Martin Luther. I hope someday we can be in Communion with the Lutheran Church. I am proud you are my brother in Christ. I hope that we will stand before God at the Altar in heaven together. I am sorry for any rudeness you have experienced here. I am thankful for our protestant brothers because of their love of scripture, we are becoming stronger and more informed Catholics. :thumbsup:


#6

[quote="JillianRose, post:1, topic:313800"]
After much discussion with my two best friends who belong to the dutch reformed church. (Calvinist) I have come to the conclusion that as a Catholic I am more tolerant then them. They don't have to accept our doctrine, but for crying out loud if you are going to be telling your children what Catholics are, at least get it right. I found out that MY best friend, who knows better, tells her kids that Catholics don't love Jesus like they are suppose to and we worship and pray to Saints.

So here is my question. For all you Catholics and Non Catholics, is this common?

We don't have to believe in each others church but for crying out loud at least get it right. Why do we have to spread such disease among each other. Do you know how much we Catholics and Protestants could accomplish in the Government and Social Issues?

Is anyone else getting sick of the fighting among each other?

Pray for peace......

[/quote]

Tis a shame!
In Reformation theologies there is a concept of "the invisible body" justifying those outside the Catholic Church being within the body of Christ. This concept can understood by most Catholics until you combine the attitude of what you describe above. It seems there is an invisible meaning to "the invisible body"...:shrug:


#7

[quote="JillianRose, post:1, topic:313800"]
...So here is my question. For all you Catholics and Non Catholics, is this common? ...

[/quote]

Very common.

A LCMS Lutheran parish where I used to attend actually gave an oath to its new kids ed teachers that included affirming the notion the Pope was "the very antichrist" which is in their founding documents. They are for the most part laid back about it. But when my wife finally decided to join me, leave the Lutherans and become Catholic..... Well they clearly were more concerned about that than if we'd gone over to the Methodists.

In Baptistland where I hung out, Catholics are not even Christian. Ask any of them.

As a boy in Seventh Day Adventist churches, where I was raised, we were not only taught Catholics were not Christian but that they were going to unite with the government to persecute us, kill us even, it was all according to Daniel and Revelation prophecy and our own prophetess Ellen White.


#8

I live in an area where there were very few Catholics when I was growing up. In the last 20 years with a lot of population growth there are a lot more Catholics. But when I met my husband about 17 years ago, I don't think he had ever even met a practicing Catholic, and he was 24. He has told me that almost everything he thought he knew about Catholics he'd learned from watching Godfather movies. Talk about misconceptions. The rest of what he'd heard of Catholics came from very anti-Catholic preachers. The best way to convince people they may not have the truth about Catholics is to show them by the way we live. Even then it seems like it is hard for some to get past all the rhetoric they have grown up hearing. It is very sad because the division effects us all in a negative way, which is why Christ prayed for our unity.


#9

AND....would satan be soooo focused on using our Christian brothers to persecute us if he wasn't worried about the powerful Good that Catholics can do?

Isn't satan desperate to attack the Church in the media? So even satan testifies to the powerful Holiness of the Church, by his great efforts to stir up others against us!

THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST! She is the inheritance that Jesus Christ left for all the ages. The pillar & bulwork of the TRUTH. The giver of the Bible to the world. The healer of the broken, the helper of the poor, the voice of God in the modern world.


#10

My husband is Lutheran, and because he took a course in comparative world religions, considers himself an expert on all religions, including Catholicism. He’s a bit of a know-it-all, but hey, we all have our faults.

Sometimes the misconceptions got really snotty, and early in our marriage I used to feel the need to clarify those misconceptions. And I’m afraid I wasn’t very pleasant about it. That made for some interesting arguments, including our most famous “theologic discussion,” which occurred early on the morning of December 25 the third year we were married.

It had been a stressful Advent; both of us had ailing family members and both of us were working extra time. We did what we normally do on Christmas Eve–attend the candlelight service at his church, and then Midnight Mass at my church. And then head over to Denny’s (the only thing open on that date and at that hour, unless you count a Thruway rest stop) for a late night breakfast.

So we were in Denny’s, overtired, stressed out, and hungry, and in a decidedly unChrstmaslike spirit. So you had two adults who were starting to behave like overtired, cranky three year olds. Somehow we managed to get into an argument about the Eucharist and the doctrine of consubstantiation (Lutheran) versus the doctrine of Transubstantiation (Catholic.) We got louder and louder, and then started throwing packets of sugar at each other.

Finally, the manager kicked us out!

A few days later I went to confession and confessed the ridiculous argument. The priest was actually laughing at me, and it took him a couple of moments to recover his dignity to assign me a penance and pronounce absolution. Only time I’ve ever been laughed at in confession. Mea stupida, mea maxima stupida.

The bottom line is this: Particularly the first line Protestants (Episcopalians and Lutherans,) believe so close to what we believe, that it’s almost insane that somehow we haven’t managed to hash it out and come to improve our own catechesis to the point where they would agree.

I had a dream about Purgatory once, and there was a special room for Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans. It resembled a dirty and seedy bus terminal, stuffy, overheated, and complete with all the odors that one would associate with that. There were some surly-looking angels at the ticket counter. They made it plain that they were not amused by our presence. We suffering souls all sat around on hard and splintery benches and griped about our small but significant doctrinal differences and petty arguments broke out. And once a week, St. Michael himself, looking like a stern junior high school principal, came in, lectured all of us, did some catechesis with our separated brethren who had to write points of doctrine five hundred times. The Catholics had to write essays about why they weren’t more effective at catechizing, or why they didn’t even bother to try during their lifetime. We all had to turn our papers in to St. Michael, and then get in line at the ticket counter. Only a few people at a time got the heaven ticket punched. Everyone else had to go back and sit down and think about it all for another week. And so forth.

Okay, maybe just a crazy dream. But I think that those small but significant differences are wounds inflicted in the Body of Christ that are just as grievous as those He suffered on the Cross. And may He forgive me for my part in the nasty paper cuts and brush burns that I’ve inflicted in not reaching out to those who are so close but so far away!

By the way, my husband is now aware that the sale of indulgences was an abusive practice that was never encouraged by Rome, that Catholics don’t worship Mary or statues, and in fact he has pretty much gotten over the “Mary thing” that so many Protestants find disturbing. However, he continues to insist that the same Nicene Creed that the Lutherans recite states “holy Roman Catholic Church!”

Hmmm—I never asked him what grade he earned in that comparative religion course he tells me he took in college! I think I’ll pass on that, though: No more flying sugar packets! I think, too, that for the time being, unless the Holy Spirit puts it in my heart and mind to be able to deliver it in a good and effective way, I will not inform my husband that he actually IS a part of the Catholic Church, but not in full communion.

I don’t know why we can’t all manage to at least get along and respect each other’s viewpoints: And I’m sure God wonders why He bothered to give us brains, since even the best of us don’t bother to use them all that much! But if you stop and think about it, we believe the same critical points of doctrine, we have pretty much the same value system, and we all call Christ our King. There’s a big base on which to build.

All I can say is: Go figure. And when it gets too silly, I smile, keep my mouth shut, and say a prayer that he will come to know the fullness of truth.


#11

We all have our faults, and we all have those amongst us who do not want to talk to those from other denominations (and if they do they feel it should be to 'convert' the other party).

As Churches we pay lip-service to ecumenism, despite the fact that the official doctrines of most of our Churches put it in a very central role. I know many Catholics who believe that anyone outside the Catholic Church (other Christians included) is damned, I know Catholics who believe they are not allowed to attend Protestant services. These views are in fact out of line with Catholic teaching post Vatican II.

If we are ever to have Christian unity we need to actively pursue ecumenism, not just pay lip-service to it. We have a duty to pursue unity, and by closing our doors (and minds) to ecumenism we are neglecting a central part of our mission to maintain "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Ephesians 4:3). And when we do meet with our Christian brothers and sisters from other denominations we should not do so with the motivation that they should eventually give up their faith and join with us.

If we don't mix with each other in the Christian fellowship, to recognise what we have in common, and understand and respect each others our differences, we will never achieve Christian unity.

I really do think that it is the duty of all Christians to get involved in an ecumenical group in order to meet regularly with Christians of other denominations. There are plenty of Bible study groups I(and other groups) held by many Christian Churces that are open to all, find one and join one, and if one doesn't exist then start one in your own parish (or some other type of group, choir, group to do charitable work locally, etc) and send invitations to all other local Christian Churches.

If we do nothing other than moan about how other Christian denominations wrongly portray us, but do nothing to actively reach out to each other, then nothing will ever change.


#12

Yay! I so agree with you. Peace, love and tolerance should be something we all strive to do :thumbsup:


#13

[quote="odile53, post:10, topic:313800"]
My husband is Lutheran, and because he took a course in comparative world religions, considers himself an expert on all religions, including Catholicism. He's a bit of a know-it-all, but hey, we all have our faults.

Sometimes the misconceptions got really snotty, and early in our marriage I used to feel the need to clarify those misconceptions. And I'm afraid I wasn't very pleasant about it. That made for some interesting arguments, including our most famous "theologic discussion," which occurred early on the morning of December 25 the third year we were married.

It had been a stressful Advent; both of us had ailing family members and both of us were working extra time. We did what we normally do on Christmas Eve--attend the candlelight service at his church, and then Midnight Mass at my church. And then head over to Denny's (the only thing open on that date and at that hour, unless you count a Thruway rest stop) for a late night breakfast.

So we were in Denny's, overtired, stressed out, and hungry, and in a decidedly unChrstmaslike spirit. So you had two adults who were starting to behave like overtired, cranky three year olds. Somehow we managed to get into an argument about the Eucharist and the doctrine of consubstantiation (Lutheran) versus the doctrine of Transubstantiation (Catholic.) We got louder and louder, and then started throwing packets of sugar at each other.

Finally, the manager kicked us out!

Hmmm---I never asked him what grade he earned in that comparative religion course he tells me he took in college! I think I'll pass on that, though: No more flying sugar packets! I think, too, that for the time being, unless the Holy Spirit puts it in my heart and mind to be able to deliver it in a good and effective way, I will not inform my husband that he actually IS a part of the Catholic Church, but not in full communion.

I don't know why we can't all manage to at least get along and respect each other's viewpoints: And I'm sure God wonders why He bothered to give us brains, since even the best of us don't bother to use them all that much! But if you stop and think about it, we believe the same critical points of doctrine, we have pretty much the same value system, and we all call Christ our King. There's a big base on which to build.

All I can say is: Go figure. And when it gets too silly, I smile, keep my mouth shut, and say a prayer that he will come to know the fullness of truth.

[/quote]

My sympathies and my apprecaition to your tolerance. By the way, I really have to emphasize that by far the most responses that I have got to my postings from Catholics have been positive, friendly and polite, even when the views expressed differ from those of mine. Generally I think that people, who are really comfortable with their own faith, are the ones, who can be tolerant and patient with people from other Churches or Denominations. They do not think that a differing opinion is a direct challence to their own security or peace of mind.

And I would not like a long discussion on the Communion and trans-or cosubstantiation. I really think that these are both very inadequate words to describe the mystery that we face in the Eucharist, and it is absurd that questions like these play such a role in the differences between Christians. Why is it not enough that we are commanded to celebrate this holy meal untill the end of time? If we are prescribed medicines, we should take them without pondering whether we know or even less whether we understand the pharmacological principle behind the healing effect. OK, I said more than I intended. Forget it, please.


#14

Thank you guys so much. It makes me feel better that not everyone is like that. My little Boys love the Catholic Church. I will tell you they love Mass. My 7 and 4 year old attend Catholic School. (With alot scrapping by on our part) Some times they go to mass 4 times a week. The school is run by a Franciscan Nun and a few of the teachers are nuns. They have a Catholic Catechism contest starting in 1st grade held every week by our FATHER. I would hate to see my children told something like what was said to me. It would break their spirits. I see how happy they are in their environment. I would hate for them to be ashamed of who they are.

p.s you should here him sing the little apostle song, that helps him remember them... SO CUTE!!


#15

[quote="bitznbitez, post:7, topic:313800"]
Very common.

A LCMS Lutheran parish where I used to attend actually gave an oath to its new kids ed teachers that included affirming the notion the Pope was "the very antichrist" which is in their founding documents. They are for the most part laid back about it. But when my wife finally decided to join me, leave the Lutherans and become Catholic..... Well they clearly were more concerned about that than if we'd gone over to the Methodists.

[/quote]

Well, I wouldn't take that pledge, and I am the son of a Lutheran pastor, a life-long Lutheran. I would say this, however, that in the sense that the confessions framed it, and the times it was written, I certainly understand it. But let's be very clear, the reference is to the office, and one can read what the "Power and Primacy of the Pope", written by Melanchthon, says, not to the man who holds it.

Jon


#16

At school morning play-break all the little boys went running out of class. Half of them shouting:
Caflicks, Caflicks go to heaven! :whackadoo:
Prodestints, Prodestints go to hell!

The other half shouting:
Prodestints, Prodestints go to heaven! :p
Caflicks, Caflicks go to hell!

After a big fight and a few blood noses :blackeye: they are all happy again and the best of mates. :hug1:

Cyberseeker reminiscing :wink:


#17

Jillian,

I oppose the notion of fighting.

Coming out of the red corner, with a record of 21-2,weighing in at 300 lbs, the manassa mauler

and

Coming out of the yellow corner, with a record of 33-0, weighing in at 302 lbs, the Viking Spirit…

it isn’t fighting. The Church opposes false teachings. We oppose false teaching. To consider this a fight is to equate that there are opponents of equal magnitude, of equal experience, and of equal value…this is not true

To the Church was given the utterance of Scripture
Protestants took it by theft and Disopbedience

The Apostolic Faith is revealed and maintained in the Church through time
Protestants invented it

and the list goes on…

We are not battling, fighiting, we just oppose those that do not spread truth. Jesus is the truth and what we believe and teach is what we believe Jesus taught the Apostles that so many spent so many hours working to get right…we profess one Faith in the Church and that Faith has been maintained for centuries…

We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for usmen and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man ; was crucified also for us underPontius Pilate, suffered and wasburied ; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe ) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son ), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by theProphets. And we look for (I look for) theresurrection of the dead and thelife of the world to come. Amen."

the problem is that while most Protestants accept all of the above, not because of the reasons that it was formulated, but because they believe they found it in a book…

they deny what we believe in the following…

And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.

Not all Protestants deny the Baptism however all deny the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church…

Do you really believe that this is a fight…? Are we dealing with a foe on equal footing…? A foe with equal truths…?

or

Are we just opposing those that deny truths of what we believe and to cause you believe it is a fight and frustrate you, you give in to those that want to cause you to lose what it is you believe and why?


#18

Peace would be good but i do not believe that I could not join hands with the CC because of the diffrences in MAJOR doctrines. Amo 3:3 “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” (KJV)
I do have a big heart for my catholic friends and keep them in my prayers.
Kind Regards.


#19

Makko,

You are correct. How can anyone join hands with doctrines that cannot be proven to be infallible without error…

Doctrines that were invented and cannot be proved…

Doctrines that have perhaps an existence of 500 years when compared with 2000 years of Christian History

Doctrines that there can be little agreement on and there is dispute concerning and no hope of resolution…

Doctrines that confuse and do not clarify…

for instance…

Believing that the Bible that Protestants have is truly the word of God…when in fact it is a translation, and no Protestant declares a translation to be free of error, and there are no original Scriptures…so Protestants are left with a book, stolen/disobediently translated, then printed and distributed without authority and then mangled and taken apart and retranslated, again without authority, substituting a Hebrew OT without authority and then removing the entire Deuterocanonical without authority to produce

Protocanonical translations that they base their beliefs and thoughts on without any way to prove that it is the word of God…

Who would join that group…someone stating they have the word of God with inability to prove that it is the word of God…if this cannot be proven then nothing else can be believed…

I am grateful you mentioned the King James…found here online and there you will find the Deuterocanonicals, makes you wonder who removed them, why, what authority said to do this…???:shrug:

sceti.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?textID=kjbible&PagePosition=1

No hand extended from me for that, no thank you…:slight_smile:


#20

Friend,
Venting is good, people need to get things off of ther chest. Hope you feel better now :wink:
Kind Regards


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