Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality


#1

... and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It's a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.


#2

Hey AthenaC, should I go get something for that video?


#3

[quote="Crescentinus, post:2, topic:295511"]
Hey AthenaC, should I go get something for that video?

[/quote]

Um .... I think youtube uses flash player. The song is "City Hall" by Vienna Teng. I would post the lyrics, but it would rob you of the experience of hearing the beautiful, emotional music.


#4

[quote="AthenaC, post:3, topic:295511"]
Um .... I think youtube uses flash player. The song is "City Hall" by Vienna Teng. I would post the lyrics, but it would rob you of the experience of hearing the beautiful, emotional music.

[/quote]

I'm talking about a blogpost which contradicts the argument in the video.


#5

[quote="Crescentinus, post:4, topic:295511"]
I'm talking about a blogpost which contradicts the argument in the video.

[/quote]

If you like. There isn't really an argument in the video. I don't know how you "contradict" the experience of real people, but if you found something that does that, I'm game.


#6

[quote="AthenaC, post:5, topic:295511"]
If you like. There isn't really an argument in the video. I don't know how you "contradict" the experience of real people, but if you found something that does that, I'm game.

[/quote]

And that's the point. Most of the gay marriage argument is emotional in nature, which is impossible to argue against. And maybe that's actually why we will never "win" on SSM.


#7

[quote="CatholicTrekkie, post:6, topic:295511"]
And that's the point. Most of the gay marriage argument is emotional in nature, which is impossible to argue against. And maybe that's actually why we will never "win" on SSM.

[/quote]

Well, in all fairness, sensible people look around at their friends, neighbors, and family who are in loving homosexual relationships. The idea that a loving relationship could possibly be evil simply doesn't compute, especially when you consider that God is Love personified.

Notice how any / most of the arguments have some component of "well, you might think it's love, but it's actually evil in disguise"?


#8

[quote="AthenaC, post:5, topic:295511"]
If you like. There isn't really an argument in the video. I don't know how you "contradict" the experience of real people, but if you found something that does that, I'm game.

[/quote]

I'm not setting out to contradict the experience of real people because it's idiotically futile.
I am however, setting out to attack the emotionalism since I know that it's a weapon that homosexualists use a lot along with extremely cheap rhetoric, oversimplifications and demonizations.
patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/05/our-godawful-objectification-of-men-with-same-sex-attraction.html
patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/05/4-ways-the-gay-marriage-debate-has-been-rigged.html
And yet we can win on SSM. How? By simply crushing the cheap emotionalism, oversimplifications, demonizations and extremely cheap rhetoric using objective reason coupled with the zeal and love (agape) for homosexuals.
I did say "a blogpost" earlier. But, I then decided to double that.


#9

Hearts are changing every day. With so many people coming out and being more visible more people are seeing the real harm that is caused to people by discrimination. Avowed homophobes are reconsidering their positions as their siblings, children, or friends come out.

Even if it takes a few decades for full equality, the climate is changing and it will happen.


#10

[quote="AthenaC, post:1, topic:295511"]
... and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It's a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

[/quote]

No one is saying that people with same-sex attraction don't have genuine feelings and real lives. Strong feelings, however, do not equate appropriate behavior if one acts upon those feelings.

I can have strong feelings towards a married man, but it would be wrong of me to act on those feelings.
I can have strong feelings towards a person who deeply hurt me, but it would be wrong for me to hurt them back.

Our feelings are definitely a part of our nature, but they do not define us, nor should we act upon all of our feelings, even if they are strong.

People are afraid of saying that our strong feelings, yes, even feelings of attraction and emotional connection, can be disordered. There are mothers who have strong emotional feelings for their sons, and they pamper, baby, and coddle them, but this is not healthy for mother or son, especially when the son reaches a certain age. The mother may be having extreme motherly affection for her son, but taken overboard, this is disordered.

A person with a personality or certain attachment disorders has often intense feelings of attraction, but that doesn't mean those attractions are healthy.

We also ALL have lives... even hardened criminals have personal lives where they have suffered pain from others and in relationships. None of this constitutes condoning homosexual behavior, which is highly disordered.

Your song has no "argument" to it. No point is made as to why same-sex attraction is good. I have no doubt that she is experiencing a longing. Longing, attraction, emotions, etc. are not the same as love. One can love without any of these "feelings", just as one can experience all these feelings without love.


#11

[quote="Crescentinus, post:8, topic:295511"]
I'm not setting out to contradict the experience of real people because it's idiotically futile.
I am however, setting out to attack the emotionalism since I know that it's a weapon that homosexualists use a lot along with extremely cheap rhetoric, oversimplifications and demonizations.
patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/05/our-godawful-objectification-of-men-with-same-sex-attraction.html
patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/05/4-ways-the-gay-marriage-debate-has-been-rigged.html
And yet we can win on SSM. How? By simply crushing the cheap emotionalism, oversimplifications, demonizations and extremely cheap rhetoric using objective reason coupled with the zeal and love (agape) for homosexuals.
I did say "a blogpost" earlier. But, I then decided to double that.

[/quote]

I've read both of those before. But it doesn't really answer the idea -

1) The objectification of gay men (like the objectification of women) shows that as a whole, we still need help seeing gay men as individuals and fully human. It doesn't say anything about their capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.

2) The debate is rigged post - yes it is. I agree that it is simply not the case that disagreeing = hate or homophobia. I have said elsewhere that no one is homophobic; show me a person that says, "Look! A homosexual! Run for your lives!" and I will eat my words. Which again has no bearing on a homosexual couple's capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.

P.S. I'm still expecting the obligatory "Well, clearly it's not really love because of X, Y, and Z academic abstraction" post to come along at some point from someone.


#12

[quote="AthenaC, post:11, topic:295511"]
I've read both of those before. But it doesn't really answer the idea -

1) The objectification of gay men (like the objectification of women) shows that as a whole, we still need help seeing gay men as individuals and fully human. It doesn't say anything about their capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.

2) The debate is rigged post - yes it is. I agree that it is simply not the case that disagreeing = hate or homophobia. I have said elsewhere that no one is homophobic; show me a person that says, "Look! A homosexual! Run for your lives!" and I will eat my words. Which again has no bearing on a homosexual couple's capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.

P.S. I'm still expecting the obligatory "Well, clearly it's not really love because of X, Y, and Z academic abstraction" post to come along at some point from someone.

[/quote]

1 and 2. Define loving. Your response had not defined it.
Also, you had not looked at what I said after those two blogposts.

Keep in mind, I'm not into abstractions because those are ultimately futile.
Before one wonders why my reply is short, it's mostly because Catholic80 had beaten me to it. o:


#13

[quote="AthenaC, post:1, topic:295511"]
... and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It's a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

[/quote]

So what? It is not the Church's job to sugarcoat the Truth, but to fearlessly proclaim and defend it. Just like Hannibal Lechter's meal of liver and fava beans fails to become less gruesome just because he happens to find it tasty, a same-sex couple's offense to God doesn't become any better just because they derive some feeble measure of emotional satisfaction from it. Therefore, Catholics will invariably "win" since either those with same-sex attractions will accept the Truth, or they will reject it, risking a damnation that Aquinas assures us the faithful will rejoice in.


#14

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:9, topic:295511"]
Hearts are changing every day. With so many people coming out and being more visible more people are seeing the real harm that is caused to people by discrimination. Avowed homophobes are reconsidering their positions as their siblings, children, or friends come out.

Even if it takes a few decades for full equality, the climate is changing and it will happen.

[/quote]

Homophobia is a completely different issue and should not be conflated with the Catholic position on love and marriage.


#15

[quote="BlueEyedLady, post:9, topic:295511"]
Hearts are changing every day. With so many people coming out and being more visible more people are seeing the real harm that is caused to people by discrimination. Avowed homophobes are reconsidering their positions as their siblings, children, or friends come out.

Even if it takes a few decades for full equality, the climate is changing and it will happen.

[/quote]

Hearts are indeed changing everyday. I used to call myself a lesbian; and had a wedding ceremony with my partner; and marched in parades; and collected signatures on petitions; and pulled on people's heartstrings with my emotional yet intelligently written performances in a variety of venues.

After nearly ten years of that, I had a change of heart.

Today, I am a truly liberated Catholic woman without a trace of same-sex attraction. And I am not the only one, thanks be to God! :D

Regardless of future legislation in this country, the battle is already won. Back in the days when I called myself a lesbian, I thought I was so free, and our little "wedding" was so inspiring and lovely. Years after I left that world, when I finally returned to the Catholic Church (I had been raised Catholic), I looked back on those days and could see just how dark and miserable they were.

My friends and I have a saying: "If you live in the sewer long enough, you get used to the dark and the smell." Thanks God I am living in the Light now :thumbsup:

Gertie

[quote="Catholic80, post:10, topic:295511"]
No one is saying that people with same-sex attraction don't have genuine feelings and real lives. Strong feelings, however, do not equate appropriate behavior if one acts upon those feelings.

I can have strong feelings towards a married man, but it would be wrong of me to act on those feelings.
I can have strong feelings towards a person who deeply hurt me, but it would be wrong for me to hurt them back.

Our feelings are definitely a part of our nature, but they do not define us, nor should we act upon all of our feelings, even if they are strong.

People are afraid of saying that our strong feelings, yes, even feelings of attraction and emotional connection, can be disordered. There are mothers who have strong emotional feelings for their sons, and they pamper, baby, and coddle them, but this is not healthy for mother or son, especially when the son reaches a certain age. The mother may be having extreme motherly affection for her son, but taken overboard, this is disordered.

A person with a personality or certain attachment disorders has often intense feelings of attraction, but that doesn't mean those attractions are healthy.

We also ALL have lives... even hardened criminals have personal lives where they have suffered pain from others and in relationships. None of this constitutes condoning homosexual behavior, which is highly disordered.

Your song has no "argument" to it. No point is made as to why same-sex attraction is good. I have no doubt that she is experiencing a longing. Longing, attraction, emotions, etc. are not the same as love. One can love without any of these "feelings", just as one can experience all these feelings without love.

[/quote]

:clapping:

Keep speaking the truth with love.

Gertie


#16

The point always has been, and always will be, do you love God enough to be obedient. Jesus genuinely didn't want to go to the cross. He was so stressed His sweat contained blood, but He was obedient. If you trust God, believe his word to be truth, then you have to acknowledge that He knows more than you. In knowing more than you He knows what is best for you, even if that is hard to accept. Every significant person in the Bible suffered for following God or suffered for their sin. In First Peter, the apostle says that to suffer for doing what is right glorifies God, suffering after sinning should be expected and glorifies no one. The person who is attracted to the same sex and chooses a chaste life is a brave and incredibly strong individual. Don't glorify those who seek to justify sin.


#17

The New York Times Magazine a Sunday or two ago had an article about young boys, that prefer to act, and behave, like girls: wearing dresses and having their own fashion shows. Apparently, even the most liberal parents of these boys, are struggling hard with the issue of homosexuality, and their own children. Homosexuality is a hard loss to win.


#18

For all of the trolls on this site that enjoy poking the sharp stick of homosexuality in the eyes of Catholics....accusing us one and all of homophobia....I only have this to say: Sodomy has been historically considered an abomination by all Western societies, and most Asian for the last 5,000 years. It is only in the last 40 or so years, fueled by the mass media, that such abominable deeds have become public and the perpetrators have lost their shame...and began demanding their so-called rights.
I will cite a recent quote by the head of the Virginia House of Delegates (the Virginia Legislature): "Sodomy has no civil rights".
I guarentee you that if a national referendum on gay marriage were held today, the "Gay" community would lose big time! It is not just the Catholics who are opposed to the Homosexual lifestyle, it is the vast majority of the American people. How else do you explain that 30 states have, as part of their constitutions, that marriage exists only between a man and a woman.
Unfortunately, when the Gays lose a referendum, such in California, they resort to gettin their law suits before a judge friendly to their cause-as in California, where a gay judge canceled the will of the people.
I will not go on, because I know I will be accused of being uncharitable. It is that I am so tired of this type of banal propaganda being proffered on this site in the guise of demanding Christian understanding.


#19

Here is a post from a homosexual man who talked about wanting the type of loving, committed relationship that you feel is all good and made in the likeness of God. It is a facade. Those kind of relationships nearly don't exist.

Additionally, I read a comment from a homosexual who stated that the heterosexual community has got to understand that homosexual relationships are much more free and open and operate by different rules than do heterosexual relationships. To compare the two types of relationships and think they are more alike than different is an exercise in futility.

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3650#.UB3dnGt5mSM


#20

Because alot people these days do not belive in God they really and truly do not understand religion and what it is all about. So in the end it is not about what God wants but in their own lives is's what they what. so for example people here in australia in groups chase after people in government and rally for same sex marrage.

i really fear if this comes about because i read about akita Japan, fatima, the four girls from spain and i really can not see people converting by the masses.


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