Why did God allow us to have free will when most of people end up denying him?


#1

I'd rather have a God who didn't give us a choice. When you give people choices most choose the dumbest thing possible. I'd rather God was someone who simply forced us to be good and simply destroyed evil rather than letting it occur. So why do people say free will is so good. Free will is terrible and is the only reason people are in hell. If God simply got rid of free will, it would be amazing.


#2

For me personally, even though, as a humble sinner I couldn’t claim to know the mind of God
I would much rather people chose to obey me rather than being forced… I’m no expert but it’s just my own thoughts.


#3

He could build a machine for each and every person. Every where you go the machine goes as well. It is humanoid shaped but it made of metal. The machine is given power to know all of your thoughts and mind. Whatever you think, it thinks. Anytime you think wrongly the machine punishes you.


#4

To really love God, or any other person, love must come from our own free will. No one can tell you, not even God to love him, it has to be a conscious and personel chose. You cannot demand love, it has to be given Freely. Would life be simpler, who knows, but it wouldn’t be love.

If God got rid of free will, how would he know that you love him. If your wife says Wild Catholic you must love me, how long would your marriage last.


#5

[quote="WildCatholic, post:1, topic:318438"]
I'd rather have a God who didn't give us a choice. When you give people choices most choose the dumbest thing possible. I'd rather God was someone who simply forced us to be good and simply destroyed evil rather than letting it occur. So why do people say free will is so good. Free will is terrible and is the only reason people are in hell. If God simply got rid of free will, it would be amazing.

[/quote]

Partially because the ends don't justify the means, and partially because our free will is in large part what makes us in the image of God. Free will is good in itself. The abuse of it is terrible, yes, but in removing it you don't just remove the abuse but all the wonderful results and in fact our humanity. Removing it (once it exists) would be bad in itself, because it would degrade us, and it would also have bad effects.

Heaven is the communion of people who freely chose to unite themselves with the ultimate good. Without free will, heaven would be a bunch of robots sitting in the same place thinking they were happy because they're made to do so.


#6

[quote="WildCatholic, post:1, topic:318438"]
I'd rather have a God who didn't give us a choice. When you give people choices most choose the dumbest thing possible. I'd rather God was someone who simply forced us to be good and simply destroyed evil rather than letting it occur. So why do people say free will is so good. Free will is terrible and is the only reason people are in hell. If God simply got rid of free will, it would be amazing.

[/quote]

Hello Wild Catholic
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

The proof of love is in surrending ones own will. Freedom of will is a great gift, and we shouldn't look upon it as a curse.


#7

[quote="WildCatholic, post:1, topic:318438"]
I'd rather have a God who didn't give us a choice. When you give people choices most choose the dumbest thing possible. I'd rather God was someone who simply forced us to be good and simply destroyed evil rather than letting it occur. So why do people say free will is so good. Free will is terrible and is the only reason people are in hell. If God simply got rid of free will, it would be amazing.

[/quote]

Think of it like this....

I am engaged to a wonderful woman. I do my best to make her happy and show her my love. I do this by buying her flowers at random times, surprising her by buying her tickets to see a musical or play that she's wanted to see (though I'd rather see some action flick :D), getting her sweets every now and then....that sort of stuff. And she loves it when I do this sort of stuff.

NOW....If I only bought her flowers because she came up to me and said "here's $20, go buy me a dozen roses", or "here's $20, you're taking me out to see this movie whether you like it or not", that wouldn't really be me displaying my love to her; it would be me following orders like a mindless robot.

She doesn't see my love by the things she orders me to do, but by the things I choose to do for her. It's the same thing with God. We don't truly love God if we just did things because He controls our mind and body; we truly love God in the things that we choose to do.

Only with free will can we truly love someone.


#8

no choices? Sounds like a great society.


#9

[quote="WildCatholic, post:1, topic:318438"]
I'd rather have a God who didn't give us a choice. When you give people choices most choose the dumbest thing possible. I'd rather God was someone who simply forced us to be good and simply destroyed evil rather than letting it occur. So why do people say free will is so good. Free will is terrible and is the only reason people are in hell. If God simply got rid of free will, it would be amazing.

[/quote]

When a being does something without freedom of choice, that act no longer has a moral quality to it. We say the act is done by instinct. While an act performed by instinct may reward the being that performs the act, it doesn't necessarily reward many others. In fact, sometimes acts of instinct take away the life of others (consider animals that feed their young, by instinct, but also kill other creatures in order to do so).

God wanted to create beings who enjoyed the type of life that he does. God can make choices. Being all-knowing and all-wise, God chooses to be benevolent. And the choices God can make are morally good and rewarding, not merely to God but to others as well. In fact, for an act to be truly good it must not be selfish. Instinct cannot guarantee such moral excellence.

To be like God, as God wishes, we must have the ability to choose good over evil, just as God does. If we don't have that ability, then we cannot share in the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) And there would be no need to reveal Christ to those who will not inherit such a life, would there? And without having Christ revealed to us, could we truly get to know our Creator?--John 14:8, 9.

It should be noted that according to official Catholic doctrine "hell" is a type of eternity **chosen **by people. One cannot end up in hell by accident or following instinct. Those who end up in hell do so because they don't want to live the type of life of freedom God is offering.

And it should also be noted that without freedom to choose, one cannot see heaven either. God will not force you or anyone to receive the type of life he holds out.

Realizing this, isn't freedom therefore better? If not, then why not argue for the return of slavery of humans? Wouldn't you enjoy a life where people forced you to do as they pleased, even if you disliked it? Of course not!


#10

Having no free will would basically build resentment. Would you want someone you loved dearly resent you because of that love? I love my cat (ok, dumb analogy), but I only know he loves me from his actions. I can't force him to love me, and I would prefer it that way. Yes, he could reject my love, and that would make me sad. So, I'm all the happiier because of the love he shows me. His willing love is far better than a forced love.


#11

I think the jury is still out on whether we have free will.

Someone can’t give you free will. That would not be free will. Or as someone once put it - ‘of course we have free will - do we have a choice?’


#12

The Catholic jury has pretty well decided. And free will does not mean the ability to have everything as one wants it, so the lack of choice over having free will does not present a problem.

newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm


#13

This argument does not stand up to test.

If someone frees a slave, does that person now have freedom? Your argument says they do not.

If someone is freed from prison, your argument says they don’t have freedom. I am sure you would disagree with your own argument if you were the one being freed from jail.

Just because someone gives freedom to others, this doesn’t negate that freedom from being real.

Just because someone gives you a puppy doesn’t make the puppy lose all that makes it a puppy. It is still a puppy, regardless of who hands what to whom.


#14

You misunderstand me, if a supernatural entity, who created and has control of you gives you free will, it is not really free will is it.


#15

The catholic jury, can’t decide this point. It is meaningless to say that. It’s like saying the catholic jury has decided gravity does not exist


#16

Because without free will, there is no worship of God. Worship of God is an acknowlegement of his right to worship and our duty to do so; if there was not free will there would be no authentic giving of worship, because giving of necessity implies the ability to not give.

A forced gift is no gift at all.


#17

Yes it is. God give’s up His control of your choices so can chose to love (in its fullest sense of complete self donation for the good of another).

If you cannot choose good over evil there would no merit in any of your activity. You would be no better than a virus reacting to the evironment you happen to be in.

I know I have free will because I can, and have done so, choose to do good instead of evil when the evil could be more fun or less effort


#18

[quote="aprilfloyd, post:15, topic:318438"]
The catholic jury, can't decide this point. It is meaningless to say that. It's like saying the catholic jury has decided gravity does not exist

[/quote]

So you say. On what basis?. Sound like a major case of unsubstantiated hand waving.


#19

No, I understand where you are coming from. In fact I knew this is what you were going to say in response to my own.

My apologies if I have or am making you feel as if your view is unimportant, but your statements do not answer the main question of the thread. The thread is about “why” did God allow free will, not “is there a God and did God give us freewill”? You should start another thread if those are the points you want to raise.

Netiquette teaches that we should stay on the point of a thread. Those who don’t are said to be “hijacking” the thread. Some call these people “trolls.” The netiquette view is that such persons just want to push their personal agenda (i.e., no such thing as free will if it is granted by a so-called God) that is contrary to view of the one who posted the original thread question (i.e., God is believed in, but “why” free will). I trust you are not such a “troll,” but just made a mistake against the rules of this forum and common social online practice.

My reply was written in attempt to keep the discussion on track, with the “given” that there is a God and God gave us free will. To argue whether there is a God and/or if what we have is free will would be to ignore the thread’s original intention.


#20

AprilFloyd,
Imagine, hypothetically, that genetic engineering became legal and commonplace in the morning. Say it was accepted in society that you could modify your children’s DNA to make the “perfect” child. You could receive a checklist on what you wished your child to have, and say “complete obedience” was an item on the list. By ticking that box you are choosing for your child not to have free will. By not ticking it you are surely gifting them free will, surely.


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