It seems that before God created the world, he knew that if he created the world, some beings (at least the fallen angels) would end up in hell. So, why did God create the world?
At least, God could choose to not create anything at all. If he chose to not create anything, there would be no pain or hell. There would be only God, who is in his complete happiness. Isn’t that better?
Some may say that if God did not create anything, there would be no angels or human beings in eternal happiness. But, does that really matter? I think that if they never exist, it is not regrettable that they never exist. If it isn’t the case, we may imagine that there are many beings having eternal happiness, but in fact these beings never exist, and then we feel regret about that.
Life is a gift. We can use it or misuse it. The bliss of Heaven far outweighs any chance of alternative paths. I sometimes think that maybe Hell ends with souls going back to dust. So what would be the difference for those anyway. People who go to Hell choose that path. They are going where they chose to go. Sometimes, I think it is better to get super-simple with these theoretical investigations, and just accept plain and simply that we didn’t do anything to get here, we don’t merit life, we don’t deserve it. People can live this life in a way that gets them to Heaven or they can choose not to care. There are things to be enjoyed in life. If people choose to ignore that there is more to everything than just having a good selfish time then they are choosing to ignore the deeper aspects. It is called freewill.
As we are told, and as we can see for ourselves, God rains both on saint and sinner. So I think, instead of all the same posters on this forum who keep starting these types of threads, who just seem to want to go over and over the same old ground, arguing with one another, it would be easier for them to just accept that life is in God’s hands. These kinds of deliberations are what humanity chose and then when we have the choices we then complain that we have them. It didn’t have to be like this, but it is. Mankind is fallen, and is selfish much of the time because of its fallen state, so either, we can choose to try and think we know better than God, or we can hold our breaths, dive in, and get swimming until we reach dry land.
G-d did something for us by creating us. He did not really have to do this but He did it anyway out of love for us. But G-d did the heavy lifting by creating us and the whole universe. We now have the responsibility to return the tremendous favor by doing our share in making the world a better place, helping one another, and living a good, decent life according to G-d’s Law. It is only just that we be asked to do something for the gift of life, which is not a completely free gift. However, the responsibility we have toward G-d is not for G-d’s benefit; it is for our OWN benefit. Imagine living a carefree life with no responsibility at all. How meaningless such a life would be. It would not only fail to make us happy but it would be boring and empty since it has no challenges, no opportunities to grow and learn cognitively, emotionally, socially, and spiritually. As a bonus, we are not totally on our own in this life. G-d helps us every step of the way in our striving to improve. Still, we have to do our fair share and not be lazy. By doing this, G-d will be with us throughout our earthly lives and beyond.
…this sound very sound… no Universe, no sin; no pain; no compulsion to sin; no consequences of sin; no eternal damnation; no hell; no disobedience…
God is at a win-win-win place: He does not need to put up with the limitations of Creation and the Critters, and their disloyalty and judgments, and blames…
…let’s see if I can offer a different perspective…
…there are plenty of human beings whose whole existence evolves around their ego… they cannot see past their own reflection–not even to their “lovers.”
…then there are human beings whose whole existence depends upon their progeny–when unable to conceive they live a tormented life attempting to fill a psychological void that their bodies cannot remedy… then we have the ones who are able to procreate… if it is the first pregnancy, a woman has no direct experience with the pains and turmoil that bringing a life to the world would mean… while sometimes the child is loved and wanted years prior to that first conception, the moment that it is “real” changes that woman… ask that woman (women) if all of the pain, mood-swings, cravings, personal and social upheavals was too much of a cost against the joy of bringing that child to Life?
…ask those moms, who have given birth to several or a dozen babies, why knowing the taxing effects of motherhood did not deter them from having additional children?
…I believe that from their insight we may glimpse at God’s Determination to Bring Life into Existence, in spite of the calamity that chaos, disobedience, and sin would inject into Creation.
…ever met yourself with the inquisitive child who goes about asking the same question over and over? ‘…why/what is “x?”’ 'because “answered.” Two seconds later, while still in the presence of the first person… ‘…why/what is “x?”’ 'because “same answer.” …and while still in the presence of that person he/she would ask of the third: ‘…why/what is “x?”’ The third person’s answer is the same as the second’s and as the first’s.
…I find that there are two possibilities of that child’s determination to ask the same question: a) does not trust those around to reveal the truth, and b) it needs constant reassurance that those around will reveal the Truth every single time.
…we should not despair when people constantly bombard us with the same/similar questions… their refusal to accept the response may be because they are objecting to the Truth or it may be because they require reassurance or it may be Because God is using them to hone our determination, patience, and charity.
…and don’t forget that the visitors to the site may be gleaming some Knowledge from the exchanges.
Heaven and Hell - the same.
It is the blazing fire of the LORD’s presence. It is the full intensity of the Burning Bush that was not consumed.
Some fear the death they see in the flames, the eternal fire of ‘I AM’ - they conclude that it is death for a creature to pour one’s whole being into this Other, into God.
Yet it is reciprocal justice - God, in Love, poured his whole being into the Creature, choosing to be our God. And reciprocal love knows it is our due service to God to pour our whole being in return to Him.
So those fearing the flames eternally refuse to step into the fire to give themselves into God.
There are others, who love God, who want to let him have their whole being, just as He gave his whole self to be life to them. These step into the flame of the LORD’s presence, just a Moses approached the bush, and laid his shoes aside.
And the miracle, via the redemption provided by this God, they are not destroyed when they enter the fierce flame of God, but live within and with Him, eternally enjoying a reciprocal Love of eternal pouring of the self into God and eternally receiving the same from God, themselves becoming bright and aflame as is God, just as Moses’ face shone brightly. Justice, reciprocal Love. He redeems his Servants.
Hi, thank you. Yes, of course you are right, this poster is not necessarily one of those posters who keep arguing with same people over and over and over and over again, about the same things, and who only argue with one another, incessantly, as if they are arguing on some private network; which has has been going on for sometime, in fact, with the situation being somewhat of an irritating nuisance that actually comes across as arrogant. There is a difference between being charitable, and saying nothing, which essentially solves nothing.
And even more why did he create suffering for the innocents, supposing that any gods exist, they must be evil, it would have been better for them to not create anything, the idea of an all loving creator is so inconsistent with reality.
…have you ever suffered some pain due to an accidental event or through a biophysical interaction?
…did you cutoff that particular appendage to remove the pain?
…consider the fact that life is complicated… do you mean to imply that when children are born they should be placed in a coma, fed intravenously, and placed on an oxygen machine and on a system that would vacuum feces and urine from the system (Matrix) so that humans would not experience any form of pain?
It is the human experience that helps man grow–why do you want a bunch of battery packs to be man’s experience?
…consider too the fact that you enjoy rejecting God; would your human experience be less frustrated if your freewill would be removed?
I concur with you that we must voice our defense of the Faith; yet, we must also push past the irritation, the arrogance, and the ignorance (both lack of knowledge and respect) that we may be pounded with… by shutting down the irritants we convey two things: a) we are just as the rest of the world, and b) the impression (at least from their perspective) that we have lost the argument (are not able to defend the Faith).
We must be Light to world, even in the thickest of thickets!
Hi. Well, I like this post, and I like your last post, and generally don’t disagree with your posts when I see them, either; in fact, there is evidently thought and effort put into them, and they no doubt serve a purpose, too, and yet, I still believe that sometimes the best way to get people to think, is to say straight: “hey, this has been going on a long time now, so maybe you guys and girls need to stop and think for a second, because this is what is happening and it is not okay.” If posters are going to behave like rude children then sometimes they need to be told off like rude children: standard parenting procedure.
Ah, that last sentence (“The end justifies the means”), especially on a Catholic Forum, raises some doubts. I was with you up until the end. I know you are using the phrase in a specified context, but still…
God created beings with free will. The rest is up to us, working, hopefully, in cooperation with His grace. He deemed it worthwhile to create in any case, knowing the Fall of man would occur and knowing He could to bring a greater good out of it all. Personally I concur- it’s all worth it.
Every parent, when a child is conceived, knows that child will bring difficulty, pain and suffering with it.
Pregnancy and childbirth in themselves can be difficult and sometimes dangerous for the mother.
Then there are typical and not-so-typical illnesses and injuries suffered by children, as well as the emotional and financial (and sometimes physical) stresses and strains suffered by parents in the course of raising their offspring.
So why do it? Because the rewards and benefits, for both parent and child, outweigh the downsides.
Not always, there are times where the downsides outweigh the benefit of being alive. Of course, this is a Catholic forum, where the idea of just existing is better, even if that existence is short and unbearably painful cause that unfortunate soul might go to Heaven.
So the fall was necessary for us to even have free will in the first place…right?
After all is there free will when there is only one choice available? In order for a choice to be made, there must be at least 2 selections (available options) to choose from, if there is only one, its not really a choice anymore.