[quote="Barbkw, post:10, topic:227252"]
Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God and the pair shared in that connection to God.
Yet they had free will, to either love and obey God, or to reject Him and His one commandment.
They were not perfect, and thus their free will was compromised.
If they were perfect, they would not have sinned.
[quote="fhansen, post:11, topic:227252"]
While Adam & Eve were created good, they certainly lacked the perfection that only God possesses. And interestingly, Gods purpose has always been the “divinization” of man-but on His terms, of course, not ours.
Then why didn't God do it? He could have made us perfect and we'd still be in the Garden of Eden instead of this vale of tears.
[quote="styrgwillidar, post:12, topic:227252"]
Well, God created the angels as well as man, and some of those rebelled against him.
Apparently, God does not want blind obedience, or automatons that simply obey him because they were 'programmed' to do so. He did not choose to create robots, He created people who could freely choose Him or not.
He didn't want blind obedience, so he created imperfect beings who had the default setting of "I wanna sin" - that's concupiscence. In order to go against God, be oneself. In order to do God's will, one must horrendously suffer all kinds of pain.
He does not want automatons. He wants masochists.
Follow God's rules on earth and your life will be happier, you'll still have challenges and burdens, ups and downs- but they will be easier to bear in joy and happiness.
Pain, burdens, suffering is guaranteed. Joy and happiness is not.
Both God and the devil treat people the same on earth - they both expect them to suffer. The only difference is the afterlife.
Heaven or Hell are choices, neither is more difficult than the other if you recognize that God's rules are not impediments to happiness.
Going to hell is easy. All I have to do is be myself. I have to have a self, to just do what is in my default settings - concupiscence.
Going to heaven? That's much harder. It involves suffering, pain, hardship, and a cross that is so heavy it crushes any sense of hope. And God doesn't care my cross is too heavy, He just says "quit yer whining"
[quote="jtodisco, post:14, topic:227252"]
BobCatholic, I think part of your problem understanding this notion that Adam and Eve were created "perfect" is that you seem to think that the only kind of perfection is that which God has. When people say Adam and Eve were perfect they do not mean they were duplicate Gods. That in fact is an impossibility.
That I agree.
However, what I meant by perfect is ZERO CONCUPISCENCE and full knowledge.
If Adam and Eve had no concupicense, they would not have even wanted to eat the fruit. And had they had full knowledge that God was going kick them out of the Garden of Eden punish them harshly and never forgive them (temporally) - they would probably had built a 50 foot fence around the tree and really large signs saying "NO TRESPASSING"
But no, God didn't do that.
He made sure Adam and Eve were imperfect.
He didn't give them the required information of what would happen to them if they were disobedient.
You have the benefit of knowing the whole story, you know all the details of what will happen when Adam and Eve partake of the fruit and disobey. You also know that the serpent is the devil. And lastly, you "know good and evil" unlike Adam and Eve who only knew the goodness of God having no experience of evil until they disobeyed.
Correct. God didn't give them full knowledge and guaranteeing they would fail.
Think about it. I give you the keys to the car without teaching you how to drive. That guarantees you will screw up with the car. How? Unknown. But you will fail.
Also, I've noticed that you have a bad habit of not responding to points that I and others here make that poke gaping holes in your anti-God rant.
I'm not anti-God. I love God and want to be a good servant. However, all I do is fail and fail and fail and fail and fail and fail and God hates me now. Nothing I do is good enough for him so he slaps me with more pain. But I sure don't want to go to the other guy! I choose God but God pushes me away. God doesn't want me. So I try harder to get God to love me.
I'm anti-suffering. I'm anti-pain. I'm anti-hell-on-earth.
I want God to love me again. I want him to move his hand back so the rain won't fall on me so much.
And I responded to everything so far. Several people duplicated each others posts so I just answered one since it covers all those points.
[quote="LilyM, post:15, topic:227252"]
You wouldn't say to yourself 'this fork was manufactured imperfectly because it can't cut my steak'. It's not a fork's function to cut! If the KNIFE couldn't cut your steak, then you might say the knife was made badly.
So why are we not in the Garden of Eden if we are operating to manufacturer's specifications?
We're not in the Garden of Eden and that's because we are not perfect.
With my perfect knife, for example, the user can break it or drop it and damage it that way.
So no matter how heavy my cross, no matter how much God wants to break me, I still want to be with God. Even if He continues to push me away.