Why did Mary have to be without sin?


#44

**2 Samuel 6:9 **

9So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “**How can the ark of the LORD come to me?” **

**Luke 1:43 **

43"And **how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? **

How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

**2 Samuel 6:11 **

11Thus** the ark of the LORD **remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

**Luke 1:56 **

56And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.

Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Revelation 11:19 & 12:1-2
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the **ark of His covenant **appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
A great sign appeared in heaven: **a woman **clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

**Revelation 12:17 **

17So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with** the rest of her children**, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY in Scripture
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II


#45

What was in the Ark of the Old Covenant?

The written word of God. The Ten Commandments the law of God inscribed in stone

The manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness.

Aaron’s rod that budded,the proof of true priesthood.

What was in the Ark of the New Covenant, in Mary’s womb ?

The Word of God made Flesh.

The Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life.

The True Priest.

Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp


#46

Why does anything have to happen? Why did God choose to be born through a woman instead of just appearing? POOF!! Why does blood atone for sin? Why is suffering redemptive?

Things are the way God wants them. We cannot understand Gods ways.

I suggest you read this book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51940QCVMCL.jpg


#47

This is the part that most Protestants just never seem to be able to intellectually grasp. Such limit Jesus as savior in only a single-dimension - “one who forgives us our sins”. But Jesus is MUCH more than that. He is the Good Shepherd who not only forgives us of our sins BUT PREVENTS us from sinning. He keeps the wolves at bay and kills or chases away our enemies.

In the case of Mary Jesus elected by His own profound Divine Right to preempt sin and hold Mary saved and sinless from the very instant she was conceived. Mary while subject to temptation may have been tempted (we can assume she was since Satan was so arrogant to even tempt Jesus Himself) to sin. But Jesus saved her in the most profound way - through keeping her from the occasion of sin. Thus Jesus is savior both through the role of Redeemer (redemption) and by Protector.

James


#48

Gods Truth regarding Mary is revealed to us in His written word. In the following verse God clearly tells us the Truth that Mary is blessed among women because the Lord is with her.
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Luke 1:28

God never said Mary is blessed because she’s sinless, in fact God clearly says in His written word that all of humanity has sinned and Mary is part of sinful humanity.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Rom 5:12.

Only the God/Man, the Blessed Lord Jesus is sinless and we know this because God has clearly told us so in His written word.
“ Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His (Jesus Christ) mouth”; 1Peter 2:22

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#49

God’s Truth regarding Mary is revealed to us in ALL of His word - both written and spoken as God Breathed through His Apostles and as well through His OT Prophets and the very lives of the OT figures who pre-figure Mary. What you hear as God’s word is only one very small part of the totality of what God has to say about Mary. Mary is the 2nd most important figure in all of Scripture - both by scritpureal revelation and by her consent that made it possible for all of us to be saved. So important is Mary that God talks about Mary in over 140 verses! So you are only hearing about 1.4% of what God tells us about Mary. It is no wonder you have such a deficient understanding about Mary. So please do not try to muzzle God by proclaiming that He speaks to us in only one or two verses. We are told that one must live by every word of God - not just by what one wants to hear. The question I have for you is why is your hearing so poor? Do you wear doctrinal ear-plugs, “teachings of men”, that prevent you from hearing clearly what Catholics can hear God telling us about Mary?

If you are truly interested in hearing EVERYTHING that God says in written word (and don’t want to hear what God tells to us through the spoken word of the Early Church Fathers - which is substantial also) then you need to listen to what God tells us about Mary through His revelation in the following scriptural verses:

2 Tim 4:8., Luke 1:47, 1 Chron. 13:14, 1 Chron. 13:9-10, 1 Chron. 15-16, 1 Kings 15:13, 1 Kings 2:17, 20., 1 Kings 2:18, 1 Kings 2:19, 1 Mac 2:58, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Thess. 4:17, 2 Chron. 22:10, 2 Cor. 12:2, 2 Kings 2:11-12, 2 Sam. 6:11, 2 Sam. 6:16, 2 Sam. 6:2, 2 Sam. 6:7., 2 Sam. 6:9, 2 Thess. 2:15, Acts 1:12-15, Acts 11:1, Acts 13:15, Acts 13:38, Acts 15:23, Acts 15:3, Acts 15:32, Acts 28:17, Acts 28:21, Acts 7:26, Col. 1:2, Eph. 1:1, Exodus 13:12 , Exodus 13:2, Exodus 25:11-21, Exodus 34:20, Ezek. 44:2, Gal 4:19, Gal. 4:4, Gen. 3:15, Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5, Hos. 13:12-13, Isaiah 66:7, Isaiah 7:14, James 1:12, Jer. 13:21, John 1:14, John 19:25., John 19:26, John 19:27, John 2:3, John 2:4, John 2:7, John 7:3-4, Luke 1:28, Luke 1:31,34, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:36, Luke 1:38, Luke 1:39, Luke 1:41, Luke 1:42, Luke 1:43, Luke 1:44, Luke 1:46, Luke 1:48, Luke 1:56, Luke 2:19, Luke 2:35, Luke 2:41-54, Luke 2:51, Luke 22:32, Mark 15:47, Mark 3:21, Mark 6:3, Matt. 1:23, Matt. 10:3, Matt. 2:11, Matt. 27:52-53, Matt. 27:56, Matt. 27:61, Matt. 28:1 , Micah 4:9-10, Neh. 2:6, Phil. 1:1, Psalm 132:8, Psalm 45:9, Rev 11:19, Rev. 12:1, Rev. 12:1., Rev. 12:13-16, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 12:2, Rev. 2:10, Rom. 8:22, Wis. 5:16

More Here: Mary In Scripture

Good Luck - I know you are just starting off in your journey to hear all of what God has to say about Mary. Hopefully you will take this journey all the way and not become distracted from that path by the misdirected human docrinal biases and detours that you will likely encounter on the way.

God Bless,
James


Born again through Jesus and Mary?
#50

Your overly literalistic approach to this verse still causes you many problems. Taking “all” to mean “each and every individual” requires you to explain other uses of the word “all” throughout the New Testament (e.g., Mark 1:5). Furthermore, if one were to adhere to your literalistic approach, you must concede that in your cited verse, St. Paul is speaking of “all men”. He does not say “all men and all women”. As a result, taking the verse literalistically, we cannot infer anything about the sinfulness of women.


#51

Well said. Not does his selective scope of that one verse account for the fact that Jesus was a man and we know from other verses that He did not sin. So clearly there are exceptions to the term “all” in this verse.

Emerald refuses to address the contradictions I have raised in at least 2 prior posts. It is clear he is not truly interested in the truth but only in holding to his own doctrinal position that is proven here to be completely untenable.

When are you going to anwer our questions Emerald or admit you are wrong?

James


#52

You don’t want to accept the fact that God has said to us in Rom 5:12 that all of humanity has sinned because you want to promote the idea that Mary was sinless.

The truth is all people die and this is because of sin, God tells us in Rom 5:12 that death has come through sin. Of course you might say what about Enoch and Elijah, they didn’t die and they were sinners. The answer to this is in the Bible, God says He brought them up to heaven but they would have died like all other sinners if He had not miraculously brought them to heaven.

However God has not told us in His written word that Mary was sinless in fact He has told us all of humanity are sinners and Mary was part of sinful humanity.

I challenge you to disprove God and try to present the evidence that shows that Mary was sinless. Please don’t evade this challenge with red herrings, present the evidence if you have any.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Rom 5:12.

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#53

You keep putting words in God’s mouth Emerald and act like you are spokesperson or press secretary for God and need to editorialize what He says. But now you have gone too far and are trying to act like some kind of contest broker or booking agent for God. Do you really think God is going to permit you to manipulate Him into the wrestling ring to fight the personal contests that you book for Him?

In addition to the other many rebuttals we have given you and which you remain silent on consider the following additional points:

The scripture phrase “Highly Favored” in Luke 1:28 comes from the word kecharitomene (a very pretty and melodious word it is too). This is derived from the Greek root charis - literally “Grace”. Thus you will find in the KJV that charis is translated as “Grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Even Whycliffe and Tyndale (not supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that literal meaning was “endued with grace”.

Even well known Protestant linguist W. E. Vine defines it as “to endue with Divine favor or grace”. The way the angel invokes Mary, notice it is not by the name “Mary”. No, the angel invokes Mary by “state of grace” indicating that Mary’s very identity is reflected by the extreme extraordinary condition of her being in a state “full of grace”. This means Mary is supernaturally recognized as a created being who is a personification of grace that even inspire awe and respect in the angels. Essentially the angel gives Mary the new name “Kecharitomene”. This is both a title and a name and it reflects a condition or state; a state of grace. **Charis, often refers to a power or ability that God grants in order to overcome sin. **This is very important. This sense is a biblical one - as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Thus one can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy to Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin. See Romans 6:14 (For sin will have no dominion over you…[Rom 5:17; 20-21; 2 Cor. 1:12;2 Tim 1:9) and "we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-10, Acts 15:11; Rom. 3:24, 11:5; Eph 2:5; Titus 2:11, 3:7;1 Pet. 1:10).

Thus 1) Grace Saves us and 2) Graces gives us the power to be holy & righteous & without sin.

**Therefor, for a person to be “full of grace” is both to be saved AND to be completely, exceptionally holy. To be full of grace is to be empty of sin.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, looks like this:

  1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.
  2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.
  3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28)
  4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.
  5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless
  6. Therefore, Mary is holy & sinless.
  7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
  8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

More here: “The Catholic Verses (95 Bible Passages that Confound Protestants)” by Dave Armstrong, Sophia Institute Press 2004 ISBN 1-928832-73-3

And finally note that the perfect stem of a Greek verb charitoo, denotes, according to Friedrich Blass and Albert DeBrunner, “continuance of a completed action” (Greek Grammar of the New Testament [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961], 66). Mary, therefore, continues, after the angel bestows her the salutatory title to be full of the grace she possessed at the time of the Annunciation.

Thus from analysis of the verses cited, we see that, although it can not be absolutely proven from Scripture alone, it CAN NOT be ruled out on the basis of Scripture Alone that Mary was born sinless. Therefor when you claim that God tells us that Mary sinned you are putting words in God’s mouth and are being untruthful, bearing false witness and sinning. Since the bible does not call Mary a sinner and because you are not an eye witness to any sin of Mary’s you are not in any position to “cast stones”.

Ergo - you don’t speak for God nor do you understand apostolic teaching.

James


#54

I keep presenting Gods written word and it’s Truth re Mary.

In addition to the other many rebuttals we have given you and which you remain silent on consider the following additional points:

I have address the issue of Mary and sin from the Scriptures. I have no desire to go down rabbit trails.

Thus from analysis of the verses cited, we see that, although it can not be absolutely proven from Scripture alone, it CAN NOT be ruled out on the basis of Scripture Alone that Mary was born sinless. Therefor when you claim that God tells us that Mary sinned you are putting words in God’s mouth and are being untruthful, bearing false witness and sinning. Since the bible does not call Mary a sinner and because you are not an eye witness to any sin of Mary’s you are not in any position to “cast stones”.

Again I refer to the Roman Catholic sources that don’t believe the “full of grace” translation is correct. See quote below;

"Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the translation ‘full of grace,’ opting instead for the less theologically loaded praises ‘endowed with grace; dearly loved.’ The MNT task force translates it as ‘graciously favored by God,’ while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, ‘full of grace,’ is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators. The most recent standard Catholic translations the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, ‘O highly favored daughter’; JB, ‘So highly favored’) [Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? (New York: Calvary Press, 2001) p. 129].

Also regarding IC, the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.” newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

The bottom line is that God has told us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of sinful humanity. Now to suggest that Mary is sinless you must present evidence from Gods written word where He says Mary was sinless.

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#55

I just don’t understand why He wouldn’t save us all that way then. I thought the reason we needed Jesus is because noone could be perfect and we always fall short, so we need to grab on to him to make up the difference for us. I thought of it like: heaven was closed after “The Fall” and only a completely righteous person could open it. Since there were no COMPLETELY righteous people, God came himself, to enter the human world and come in through heaven from our side, to unlock the door. Now, because of him, we can go in. If there were perfect people on their own, why would we need Jesus? I don’t get it. Catholics and Protestants must view all this differently.


#56

Thank you. I did read that book actually. It was very enlightening and helpful, but I still feel uncomfortable w/the idea or the practice of praising her to the extent, or with the same words I’d praise the Father with.
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#57

Nor do I understand why. Nor does anyone. We find out the “why’s and what for’s” later after the 2nd coming. It makes no sense to me why God would put himself on the cross and suffer and die and why any of us has to go through all the trials and sorrows. We all would probably just desire none of us ever had to be tempted and sin and need to put people through sorrow for our mistakes and make God a victim of His own love so that He has to put Himself through all this stuff just to help us not go to hell and so we can be with Him in heaven.

But we have to take it in faith that there is a reason for all this. All I know for certain is that none of what is in the bible could have been contrived or fabricated. It’s too integrative and too complex and too co-interdependent for it all to have been made up by some multigenerational conspiracy that has been going on now for 4000 years since the first revelations.

My take on why Mary needs to be sinless is so we humans can stay within God’s plan for a new Adam and a new Eve (Jesus and Mary) - new spiritual parents who are sinless. Through Jesus and Mary We are spiritually reborn and the spiritual DNA (so to speak) no longer has any trace or stain of corruption or sin through this new lineage.

James


Born again through Jesus and Mary?
#58

Yes. If you’re going to follow through with that typology, remember that the first Adam and the first Eve were created sinless. It follows that the second Adam and Eve were too.

Here’s some more typology. The old ark carried manna (bread) God’s word (stone tablets) and the symbol of the high priest (Aaron’s rod).
The NEW ark, Mary, carried Jesus (bread of life) God’s word (Jesus) and the real High Priest (Jesus).

The ark was made of pure metals and anyone who touched it died. So follow through on that typology too.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
here’s more:

Luke 1:39-40 - During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.

2 Samuel 6:2 - Then David and all the people who were with him set out for Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of the God, which bears the name of the Lord of hosts enthroned above the cherubim.

Luke 1:43 - “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

2 Samuel 6:9 - David feared the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”

Luke 1:44 - “For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”

2 Samuel 6:16 - As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Saul´s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord…

Luke 1:45 - “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

2 Samuel 6:18 - When he finished making these offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts.

Luke 1:56 - Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home.

2 Samuel 6:11 - The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed Obededom and his whole house.


#59

Yes your take and not Gods Truth re Mary and the fact that she was part of sinful humanity.

Through Jesus and Mary We are spiritually reborn and the spiritual DNA (so to speak) no longer has any trace or stain of corruption or sin through this new lineage.

.:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

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#60

centralfljames: For some unknown reason emeraldisle created a new thread to address a small part of your post. You might want to look at it since he/she decided not to respond to it here and only took out snippets of your post. God Bless!


#61

I expressed a plausible opinion on a theological motive - not an interpretation of scripture. How dare you assert that you are spokesperson and interpreter of God’s word. Ever since the Protestants have rejected papal authority you all in your arrogance and lack of scholarship and apostolic teaching think you somehow have a superior interpretation of God’s word? Utter arrogance.

James


#62

Mary is Immaculate with the help of God’s Graces because of the Crucifixion of Her Son and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is sinless and perfect because He is God.

Impossible. Not without the Graces of God of which She, using Her own free will, held onto and never let go.

That’s impossible though I thought. As long as we are in the body, we always have a struggle w/sin and will eventually fail. At least that was my understanding.

Mary who was conceived Immaculately, and being Full of Grace, did not have the same inclination to sin as you or I have therefore making it easier for Her to rebel against the Serpent and have constant enmity with him as Genesis clearly states.


#63

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