Why Did Vatican II Change the Form of the Mass?


For Tim Staples, Semper Fi fellow Marine. I have to point out a contradiction in your reasoning. You state in this video (On YouTube, cut and paste the topic headline and it will come up.) that Christ did not follow the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass therefore if that is the only valid mass then Christ’s last supper or the first mass would be invalid according to the traditionalists line of thinking. Yet at the same to you publicly point to, in prior conversations, that Christ handed down authority to Peter and so on an so forth through his authority given to him by Christ, to the succeeding church fathers which was institutionalized by Christ himself. So if on the authority they received by Christ, the fathers of the church and specifically Pope Pius the V in his Pro Quimum, then your theorizing is invalid. If a valid pope authorized in perpetuity this form of the mass then prior forms of it were no longer sanctioned on the authority of Christs ordinational lineage and transfer of authority, so the tridentine mass then it is still valid and changes to it based on the language in Pius the V’s declaration warrant a defense.

In Christ,


I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone ever argue that the Tridentine Mass is invalid, not even from the most ultra-liberal Catholic. Did you intend to use that word in regards to describing someone’s argument, much less Tim Staple’s?


Vatican 2 authorized the church to enact liturgical reform, because they wanted to get the faithful more actively involved in the liturgy.

The movement toward liturgical reform was a long standing movement, you know.

Trent opened the mass up so the people could see clearly what was going on- before Trent, Mass was usually celebrated behind a screen. After Trent, Vernacular-Latin missals for the faithful were introduced in the 19th Century, the 1920’s brought the first dialogue masses which expanded over the subsequent decades.

The introduction of the vernacular was just a step along the way.


Vatican II did no such thing. In fact, the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (the official term for the Mass as seen in 1962) often closer resembles the Mass called for in the documents of Vatican II than those seen in most parishes. It was those that went against the directives of the documents of Vatican II that gave us the Mass as it’s seen in most parishes today.


Tim argued in the segment that the form of lecaity of the mass can change but that is inaccurate if we believe that authority was handed down and that papal authority codified the mass.


The licity of the Mass is separate from its validity. You can have a totally illicit Mass that’s still valid.

Is the Papal Authority of Pius V greater than any of his successors?


Oh dear. I hope you don’t believe what I think you believe.


There was zero condescension meant. I apologize if I came across that way.


and… the baby has been tossed out with the bath water…


Nothing against the vernacular, that had happened many times throughout history, before latin, there was greek, etc…, goes back to papal authority, read below, they had not the authority to sanction what they changed.


What was changed and why?


Am I correct in assuming that you’re equally outraged at what Pope Pius X did concerning the Liturgy of the Hours?

If you’re not, then why not? Because it’s not the Mass? Or because Pope Pius X is a valid Pope? If it’s the latter, then somehow he can override the binding statement of his predecessor because he’s the Pope, but as you said:

He used that same language with the breviary that Pope Pius X changed. Also, I want to see the exact quote from Pro Quimum that specifically binds future Popes from overriding it as you quoted His Holiness as saying.


If, as you’re postulating, Pope Pius V was fallible then the entire doctrine of the faith is subject to the whims. Quo Primum is binding if you believe in Papal Infallibility and there is no other way around that. So yes then, successor Popes that argued against Quo Primum, technically had no authority too. To be clear Quo Primum does not negate the ability to cater local layman customs, but more importantly it forbids the tampering of form of the holy sacrifice of the mass, and protects any changes to the canon of the mass.

On another note, this was stated by Post Vatican II hierarchy…it speaks for itself… "the effect of law was removed from the bull Quo Primum by the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum issued by Pope Paul VI on 3 April 1969. At the conclusion of that document promulgating the new Roman Missal the pope stated:

It is our will that these decisions and ordinances should be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding any Constitutions and Apostolic Ordinances made by our predecessors, and all other decrees including those deserving of special mention, no matter of what kind.

I rest my case.


Here you go buddy.

Quo Primum
Promulgating the Tridentine Liturgy
Pope Pius V - 1570

From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all our thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God’s help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose. For, besides other decrees of the sacred Council of Trent, there were stipulations for Us to revise and re-edit the sacred books: the Catechism, the Missal and the Breviary. With the Catechism published for the instruction of the faithful, by God’s help, and the Breviary thoroughly revised for the worthy praise of God, in order that the Missal and Breviary may be in perfect harmony, as fitting and proper – for its most becoming that there be in the Church only one appropriate manner of reciting the Psalms and only one rite for the celebration of Mass – We deemed it necessary to give our immediate attention to what still remained to be done, viz, the re-editing of the Missal as soon as possible.

Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.

Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women – even of military orders – and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.



This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.

All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.

We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription – except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing.



Aren’t the comments getting a bit off target. The “Why” is being missed a bit.
Someone correct this if it is wrong, a valid Mass must contain the three main parts. The rest is ceremony that is aimed at helping us to worship.
It took the better part of the first century to become a form that was used through the whole Church. It has evolved due to language, location and social and political influences. As the Church is alive so is the Mass and in a controlled manner will continue to be adjusted and attempt to improve our worshiping.
Since Vatican II I’ve seen and taken part in the Mass from a grand marbled alter in a cathedral to the top of an empty 55 gal drum. And quite a few in between. They all had the common goal of worship.

Semper Fi
Tim H


I’m with Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

Forget Latin.

Let’s go with the original Aramaic mass.


How about ancient Greek as it was the common first century language. Latin was for courts and government.


I’m not sure that the original Aramaic mass texts and instructions still exist.

Granted my expertise in this matter is limited, but I was under the impression that Jews always prayed in Hebrew in liturgical settings, not Aramaic or any other tongue


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