I’m sure both these are ideas are one in the same in terms of results. Rom. 4:24 says, “… it shall be imputed to us who BELIEVE in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.” Righteousness was “seeded” into our life as a gift. There is no such thing as “merely imputed.” The imputation sealed us in the Holy Spirit forever. The gavel slammed down and the verdict came in,… innocent! based on the finish work of another!.. justified freely. Now that we are sons and daughters of God, what will we do with our new life? … will we squander it away by living for self?.. bad choice. it yields no reward. It will be a waste.
Amen… we must all appear at this judgment seat. This judgment is not about one’s sin debt. But it is about one’s works, good or bad. That is the point.
I never said we should build a doctrine off of just one passage, but I also don’t think we should ignore it.
Who Jesus was talking to is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if he’s speaking to an unsaved pagan, or a Jew, or a Christian, because according to you, the only thing anyone needs to avoid Hell is to accept and believe in Jesus. However here Jesus is, saying something quite different. He’s not saying to believe and accept him to avoid Hell. He’s not saying you should pluck out your own eye lest you lose your inheritance in Heaven. He, quite plainly, says that you should pluck out your eye to avoid sin, lest you be cast into Hell.
Sure, the sermon on the mount or the gospel of Matthew offers no answers on eternal life, as long as you ignore this quite glaring example I provided. Like it or not, this is scripture and something Jesus himself actually said. You can’t just ignore it because it is inconvenient to your argument.
That doesn’t quite address the question head-on tho. We’re either made something better rather than “merely” declared something better-or we’re not. And I don’t think God’s purpose is to merely forgive, but to change, giving new hearts, with His law written on them. And either way we’ll be judged on what we’ve done with whatever we’ve been given. Otherwise we’re not really any different from the unjustified.
So none of the OT prophets or patriarchs was saved? Or regenerated? Or whatever term you want to use? Why is the OT full of explicit references to salvation then - the Psalms not least of all.
God does not give in an arbitrary way. Either everyone, everywhere and at every time, has had opportunity to FULLY receive the Holy Spirit - unto regeneration and/or salvation - or God has condemned a large section of humanity through a completely irrational quirk of mere chronology in their happening to have been born before Pentecost. Through no fault at all of their own.
Which really sounds more likely to you?
Which visible functioning house? Any visible functioning house? Or is it a particular functioning house?
Your question was “Why do Catholics insist on a final judgment over sin?”
You mentioned that
@tgGodsway judgment over sin “has passed.” There is no judgment over the penalty of one’s sins.
To which I pointed out to you that Jesus was referring to the FORGIVENESS OF ALL REPENTANT SINNERS – Judgment for the truly contrite is MERCY & FORGIVENESS. In Heb 8:12, Jesus said, “For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.” It does not, however mean that there will be NO FINAL JUDGMENT. If so, then it will run in contradiction to what Revelation 20:12 said that the dead were judged according to their deeds , and by what was written in the scrolls.
@tgGodsway "Doing good to the resurrection of life, is vage, how much good will it take?.. unclear!.. if this was the intent. One thing is emphatically clear, “he who hears his word and believes in Him…”
I think you misunderstood the Catholic position. We never said by the merits of “WORKS ALONE” one will be saved for there are many who do charities but only for accolades… Only God knows our hearts . It should be works done out of love… “Faith completed in good works” does show WHO WE REALLY ARE. Jn14:11 clearly not vaguely points to works as evidence of Godliness, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves .” And, in Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”
The rich man asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment. “Is” is singular yet Jesus answered in plural form. The two greatest commandments: Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength; and Love our neighbors as ourselves. Why? Because these two, FAITH AND CHARITY go hand in hand. Not by faith alone; not by works alone.
There’s still a missing link for me. You believe judgment to be about inheritance and that we will judged by our works – how does that not involve sin ?
Hm. What do you do of 1 Samuel 16:13 then (“Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward”) ?
ETA : Sorry @LilyM, this post appears as an answer to you although I’ve no idea why.
Maybe, to generalize quite a bit here in an effort to find the most common ground, we could say that we enter Christ’s fold by faith. From there we must live a life worthy of that calling, or our eternal destiny is in question.
I think the fact that there is a final judgement is fairly evident from scripture. Take James 5:9 or John 5:22. Christ is in fact our judge.
What does that mean in relation to the fact that all believers are saved? First off let’s be clear that the Catholic Church unequivocally agrees with scripture and with you that we don’t merit our own salvation and that belief in Christ is the only saving grace in our life. However we have to be careful about what we mean by “believe”. Christ himself says “if you believe in me you will keep my commandments”. So yes what Christ is judging is our belief… but our belief is measured by how well we will to keep Christ’s commandments. Even the demons confess Christ but they don’t love him and that’s the difference. If you keep sin willingly and until the grave how can you say you believed and are saved.
One last point - it isn’t for us to judge who falls on the wrong side of that line. We can say what is good and what is bad. And we all know that we don’t will the good 100% of the time. You can hate enough that Christ will judge you a nonbeliever though.
Edit: not how well we Do keep Christ’s commandments… it’s about how much we will to keep his commandments. And that only matters because it is synonymous to our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is the very act of accepting his loving gift for us. I don’t want it to seem like I’m saying God is taking a tally of every wrong thing you do… the simple question is “do you love me”.
If you truly are in Christ, you will go to heaven. But remember the anguish and despair of the judgment seat of Christ for those who choose to live for self. They will weep and gnash their teeth, not because they’re in pain from the fires of hell,… but because they realize for the very first time, ever, the gravity of their poor choices. Their status in God’s kingdom will be for ever and ever at the bottom. They will enter God’s kingdom but inherit nothing. Yet, because of God’s rich mercy they will be loved and blessed in heaven.
As I have asked for over and over, please support this with Scripture and writings of the early Church.
The O.T. patriarchs were in covenant with God by the same standards as the new with the exception of new birth. They were saved by faith, apart from works, just as we are. The only difference was we became “sealed” in the holy Spirit through regeneration. This is not my word but that of Titus in Titus 3:5. The many references to salvation in the O.T. must be understood in a natural sense rather than spiritual. They were a “natural” people and God spoke to them through natural means. All of it pointed to spiritual truth. But in order to understand spiritual truth, one must become spiritual. They could not. In the N.T. God speaks to us, (not so much by natural means) but spiritual. Why? Because we became spiritual through new birth. The holy Spirit lives in us, not in a physical building. We are the temple of the Lord, not a physical temple. The O.T. believer had to exercise faith in something coming in their future. We exercise faith in something that happened in our past, … the cross.
The key word here is “came upon.” This expression is all over the O.T. and even the New. It is not talking about a regeneration of our spirit. see 1.st. Cor. 6:17. It is talking about a manifestation of the Holy Spirit “upon” those in office, whether a prophet, priest or king. No common Israelite had these expression upon their lives. Only those I just mentioned above. Jesus said to all… The holy Spirit is with you and will soon be “in you.” This change was new. Today, you don’t have to be a prophet, priest or king to have the same access to God’s rich presence and power for ministry.
The judgment of sin has passed. John 5:24 clearly tells us that sin’s penalty was nailed to the cross. In that sense, Jesus became sin for us when He died. We will be judged, but not for sin’s penalty if we have received Christ through new birth.
I’m sorry, but I still don’t get it.
If we’re judged on our works, on what criteria ? How can sin not come into play ?
How can you say that judgement isn’t about sin? What else could it be? It can’t be works, because Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23 that even those who prophesy in His name are subject to judgement and can find themselves with the goats.
When you say, support from the early Church, … I’m thinking Apostolic, 1st. Century Church. Yes? … By the third and fourth century much was lost on this subject.
But certainly the Apostolic circle not only believed in it, but it was their foundational teaching. For instance the Apostle Paul wrote to the Colossians and said, he would pray for them to be filled with knowledge of God’s will with spiritual understanding … 1:12 " giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be PARTAKERS =partnership of the INHERITANCE of the saints in the light. The word inherit from it’s Greek counterpart as well as O.T. Hebrew means to take possession or to own, like one would own a piece of property. We can go into partnership with Christ to inherit or own something. On what bases? our good works!
Cutting a piece of a verse to attempt to hammer it into your idea?
Therefore, from the day we heard this, we do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding to live in a manner worthy of the Lord, so as to be fully pleasing, in every good work bearing fruit and growing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with every power, in accord with his glorious might, for all endurance and patience, with joy giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light.
He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
This passage does not say “They will enter God’s kingdom but inherit nothing”, it says nothing about janitors in heaven. It is okay to answer my request with “I do not have anything to back up these ideas, they are my own thoughts”.