My non-Catholic friends seem to have a problem with the Catholic notion of doing penance in union with Christ’s sufferrings on the cross for the reparation of our sins as well as the sins of the world. How does the Church defend this teaching when Jesus said “it is finished”? Actually, what exactly is the Church’s teaching on this issue? Thanks for your help. I don’t exactly understand this teaching either.
[quote=JSmitty2005]My non-Catholic friends seem to have a problem with the Catholic notion of doing penance in union with Christ’s sufferrings on the cross for the reparation of our sins as well as the sins of the world. How does the Church defend this teaching when Jesus said “it is finished”? Actually, what exactly is the Church’s teaching on this issue? Thanks for your help. I don’t exactly understand this teaching either.
Give your friends this passage from Matt 5, "21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%205&version=31#fen-NIV-23257b”)]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.**d]"
[left]You need to ask your friends what exactly they think “It is finished” means. Until you know that, you cannot respond adequately.[/left]
Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,”
Here’s some physical penance done in the NT.
How do you know what “it is finished” truly means?
[quote=Superstar905]How do you know what “it is finished” truly means?
Well, a lot of people will say it means “Our justification”. However, Romans 4:25 states, “25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.” Thus, we know that our justification was not complete until the resurrection. I believe He is referring to the “4th Cup” here. This requires a study on the Passover. If anyone wants to talk about it, let me know, and we can get into this more.
[quote=Aaron I.]Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,”
This is a good quote. Obviously, St. Paul believed in doing penance. Not only that, he thought that his own sufferings did some good for the Church.
But what could possibly be “*lacking * in the afflictions of Christ.”? Apparently only those sufferings and penances that we personally offer up on behalf of the Church.
I have a rather non unique take on what Jesus meant (Redbandito hit it too, and Scott Hahn also made the connection). The Jewish passover ceremony includes 4 cups of wine that were passed around and drunk while singing certain psalms and pronouncing certain themes. Something rather interesting happens though with the passover ceremony at the last supper.
First off the section in Luke 22:7 points out that it was the day for sacrificing the passover lamb (probably a prefigure of Jesus as the new passover lamb) then he takes the cup of wine in Luke 22:17…notice also that he makes a distinction between the eucharistic cup being used and the cup of wine used for the passover ceremony…he then says that he will not drink of the fruit of the vine UNTIL he drinks it new in the kingdom of heaven.
Why do I think that this cup is only the third cup and not the fourth of the jewish passover ceremony? because of the discription given by mathew in Mathew 26:30 which says that after drinking from the cup they sung a hymn (humneo) and then departed. It is normally translated as a hymn, but this is a little misleading because the term humneo was also used for the group of psalms 112-118 called the great hellel…these hymns were always sung after the third cup.
At this point any jew would recognize that the apostles forgot the most important part of the jewish passover…the drinking of the fourth cup. For this reason many have thought that Mathew’s gospel could not have been written during the first century because any one associated with Judiasm during the first century would realize that the fourth cup had to be drunk for a valid passover.
Another side not that I think is of interest is that when jesus is in the Garden praying. What does he pray for? Lord let this cup pass from me!! this in itself seems to be some allusion to the fourth cup. So what happened to the fourth cup? The answer comes in johns account.
Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless , woven in one piece.
So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; this was to fulfill the Scripture: “THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS.”
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”
A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth.
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished !” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
First off notice 2 things…one he is wearing a seamless linen garment which is the exact specifications used to make the vestments of the high priest which were used for the sacrifice of the passover lamb…then look at the branch that is used to put the wine up to his mouth, it is a hyssop branch, which is the brach used by the hebrews in exodus to put the blood of the lamb upon the doorposts!!
Then look at what it is Jesus asks for the wine…remember he said he would not drink it until he came into his kingdom…So they hand him the wine on the hyssop branch and Jesus says the words “IT IS FINISHED”
Why did he say this “it is finished” well most say something like…oh this is the end of Jesus’ life so he says this or basically the standard what you all have said in this thread. I think this verse like “my god my god why have you forsaken me” is misunderstood because people don’t understand jewish culture. This phrase “it is finished” are the words that are pronounced by the Jews directly after drinking the fourth cup of the Jewish passover. “tel telesti”
I think because of this it is only correct to say that the passover celebrated by the apostles is not finished until the final death on the cross…also it is incorrect to think of Jesus’ passover sacrifice of himself as starting on the cross. It also involves the last supper and the passover meal. They are both interrelated. The new passover of the eucharist is the sacrifice of the lamb of God jesus christ…it is our way of participating in the sacrifice of christ and just as in the Jewish passover it is not enough to just sacrifice the lamb, you must also eat the meal.
St. Paul picks this idea up when he says… in 1 cor 5:7-8 our passover lamb has been sacrificed therefore let us KEEP THE FEAST. What is this feast that st paul speaks of…it is the new passover…the new sacrifice…the eucharisto meal
The Early Church, especially noted in the description of they Eucharistic meal, quite obviously understood this. So in light of what I’ve talked about above, how can we be so far off in interpreting these all important words of “It is finished”, when quite obviously, as it was to the first Christians who were Jews, this referred to the Passover meal Jesus began at the last supper, and completed on the Cross. His greatest gift then, is himself, as in John 6-22-72, and the merely symbolic interpretation is flat out wrong, IMHO.
Christ came to save **mankind **-- which is not the same thing as saving each individual man. His Passion gave us the ability to be saved individually, but not the certainty. We must each look to our own salvation – thanks to Him, it is ours to achieve or lose.
Philosophically the Once Saved Always Saved position makes no sense, since it logically denies the existance and reality of sin. If there is no penalty, if we cannot lose salvation no matter how evil our acts, how can we say there is such a thing as sin?
[quote=Redbandito]Well, a lot of people will say it means “Our justification”. However, Romans 4:25 states, “25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.” Thus, we know that our justification was not complete until the resurrection. I believe He is referring to the “4th Cup” here. This requires a study on the Passover. If anyone wants to talk about it, let me know, and we can get into this more.
I’d like to hear about the 4th cup more. I think I heard Scott Hahn talk on it before, but I forget how exactly it all went.