Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?


#1

Would these same Catholics also support legal bank robbing, or legal lynching, or even legal perjury?


#2

sin, ignorance, culture of death, etc


#3

[quote="Charlemagne_II, post:1, topic:282683"]
Would these same Catholics also support legal bank robbing, or legal lynching, or even legal perjury?

[/quote]

Some might.

But again NONE of them are thinkng/living as the ought in such regard as Christians

What do they need?


#4

They need a "renewal of their mind"...that Paul speaks of

"In the second verse we are given the answer: "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God..." (12: 2). The two decisive words of this verse are "transformed" and "renewal". We must become new people, transformed into a new mode of existence. The world is always in search of novelty because, rightly, it is always dissatisfied with concrete reality. Paul tells us: the world cannot be renewed without new people. Only if there are new people will there also be a new world, a renewed and better world. In the beginning is the renewal of the human being. This subsequently applies to every individual. Only if we ourselves become new does the world become new. This also means that it is not enough to adapt to the current situation. The Apostle exhorts us to non-conformism. In our Letter he says: we should not submit to the logic of our time. We shall return to this point, reflecting on the second text on which I wish to meditate with you this evening. The Apostle's "no" is clear and also convincing for anyone who observes the "logic" of our world. But to become new how can this be done? Are we really capable of it? With his words on becoming new, Paul alludes to his own conversion: to his encounter with the Risen Christ, an encounter of which, in the Second Letter to the Corinthians he says: "if anyone is in Christ, he is in a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come" (5: 17). This encounter with Christ was so overwhelming for him that he said of it: "I... died..." (Gal 2: 19; cf. Rm 6). He became new, another, because he no longer lived for himself and by virtue of himself, but for Christ and in him. In the course of the years, however, he also saw that this process of renewal and transformation continues throughout life. We become new if we let ourselves be grasped and shaped by the new Man, Jesus Christ. He is the new Man par excellence. In him the new human existence became reality and we can truly become new if we deliver ourselves into his hands and let ourselves be moulded by him.

Paul makes this process of "recasting" even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with "way of thinking" is the Greek term "nous". It is a complex word. It may be translated as "spirit", "sentiments", "reason", and precisely, also by "way of thinking". Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations. The reasoning of the former person, the common way of thinking is usually directed to possession, well-being, influence, success, fame and so forth. Yet in this way its scope is too limited. Thus, in the final analysis, one's "self" remains the centre of the world. We must learn to think more profoundly. St Paul tells us what this means in the second part of the sentence: it is necessary to learn to understand God's will, so that it may shape our own will. This is in order that we ourselves may desire what God desires, because we recognize that what God wants is the beautiful and the good. It is therefore a question of a turning point in our fundamental spiritual orientation. God must enter into the horizon of our thought: what he wants and the way in which he conceived of the world and of me. We must learn to share in the thinking and the will of Jesus Christ. It is then that we will be new people in whom a new world emerges."

--Pope Benedict XVI (continued in next)


#5

"Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter's fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be "children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine..." (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a "responsible" and "adult faith". The words "adult faith" in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a "courageous" form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church's faith, even if this contradicts the "logic" of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an "adult faith". It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator's ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying "no", but rather leads us to the great "yes". He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: "speaking the truth in love" (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful."

--Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html


#6

Because they are American as well as Catholic. There can be separation of Church and state.

Just as with divorce, legal but immoral. No one is forcing Catholics to divorce. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions. Catholics are able to live their religion. It is not a requirement for all the population to practice Catholicism for some to practice it. We don't live in a theocracy.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


#7

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:6, topic:282683"]
Because they are American as well as Catholic. There can be separation of Church and state.

Just as with divorce, legal but immoral. No one is forcing Catholics to divorce. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions. Catholics are able to live their religion. It is not a requirement for all the population to practice Catholicism for some to practice it. We don't live in a theocracy.

[/quote]

HUH?

I am American and Catholic (or rather the other way around)

Such is NOT what the Separation of Church and State means....that is rather what the separation of the Catholic and the State of Grace can mean....

(abortion is a natural law matter too!!! No one is to murder their children!!! and no State can permit such. And it is directly contrary even to the American recognition of the God given right to life!)

Catholics are to live according to the Gospel ..according to the Teachings of Christ.

The requirement is that Catholics are to live their Catholic Faith and not think or act contrary thus to the Gospel.

The above quotes from Pope Benedict XVI can be helpful for us all to read.


As to divorce -- some divorce is sinful and some can be legal action of a technical "legal" divorce can be legit (they know they are not really divorced --what God has united...) say for the sake of the Children etc (see the CCC).


#8

[quote="Bookcat, post:7, topic:282683"]
HUH?

I am American and Catholic (or rather the other way around)

Such is NOT what the Separation of Church and State means....that is rather what the separation of the Catholic and the State of Grace can mean....

(abortion is a natural law matter too!!! No one is to murder their children!!!)

Catholics are to live according to the Gospel ..according to the Teachings of Christ.

The requirement is that Catholics are to live their Catholic Faith and not think or act contrary thus to the Gospel.

The above quotes from Pope Benedict XVI can be helpful for us all to read.


As to divorce -- some divorce is sinful and some can be legal action of a technical "legal" divorce can be legit (they know they are not really divorced --what God has united...) say for the sake of the Children etc (see the CCC).

[/quote]

That is the point. Catholics can live as Catholics with out Catholicism being the law of the land. My neighbor doesn't have to be Catholic for me to be Catholic.


#9

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:8, topic:282683"]
That is the point. Catholics can live as Catholics with out Catholicism being the law of the land. My neighbor doesn't have to be Catholic for me to be Catholic.

[/quote]

Such is completely off topic.


#10

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:6, topic:282683"]
Because they are American as well as Catholic. There can be separation of Church and state.

Just as with divorce, legal but immoral. No one is forcing Catholics to divorce. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions. Catholics are able to live their religion. It is not a requirement for all the population to practice Catholicism for some to practice it. We don't live in a theocracy.

[/quote]

There's a huge difference between living with and supporting. All Americans currently live with legal abortion, we have to, we have no other option, it is legal. However, how can anybody really truly be a follower of Christ and also support the killing of innocent humans? Jesus was very anti unjust violence. The killing of unborn babes is quite obviously unjust. Christ was not just against his followers doing these things, he was against them happening at all. Obviously we can't force any particular person to do anything against their will, but that doesn't mean we can't work to have as just a society as possible. If your religion leads you to believe abortion is unjust then as an American who desires a just society you should work for a just society by fighting against the injustices you see occuring. Would anyone advocate the killing of young children because it becomes inconveniant for their parents to take care of them? If some people start advocating for this, is it really ok for anyone who calls themselves a follower of Christ to support such infanticide? I can't see how it is possible to support unjust killing and still call oneself a christian of any sort.


#11

[quote="Bookcat, post:9, topic:282683"]
Such is completely off topic.

[/quote]

No, that is the question. Supporting the legality of something we consider immoral.

Abortion being legal doesn't make it compulsory anymore that Alcohol being legal makes that compulsory. Some people consider drinking alcohol immoral.

We are free to live as we see fit. Abortions are immoral. Catholics don't have abortions. We can practice our religion without it being the law of the land.


#12

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:11, topic:282683"]
No, that is the question. Supporting the legality of something we consider immoral.

Abortion being legal doesn't make it compulsory anymore that Alcohol being legal makes that compulsory. Some people consider drinking alcohol immoral.

We are free to live as we see fit. Abortions are immoral. Catholics don't have abortions. We can practice our religion without it being the law of the land.

[/quote]

Yes, we can practice our religion even if it isn't the law of the land, but can we really practice our religion while at the same time supportingimmoral practices?


#13

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:21[/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t seeing as supporting immorality but rather allowing each to live as they see fit. I can only tend to my own garden. I see religion as personal, not governmental.


#14

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:13, topic:282683"]
[bibledrb]Matthew 22:21[/bibledrb]

I don't seeing as supporting immorality but rather allowing each to live as they see fit. I can only tend to my own garden. I see religion as personal, not governmental.

[/quote]

So should we all work towards making infanticide legal then? After all, we wouldn't want to prevent everyone from living exactly as they see fit. What about rape? Why aren't we working towards making rape legal? After all, if rendering to caeser that which is caesers implies that we should work to make all imoral things legal, why aren't we all pushing for these to become legal?


#15

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:11, topic:282683"]
No, that is the question. Supporting the legality of something we consider immoral.

Abortion being legal doesn't make it compulsory anymore that Alcohol being legal makes that compulsory. Some people consider drinking alcohol immoral.

We are free to live as we see fit. Abortions are immoral. Catholics don't have abortions. We can practice our religion without it being the law of the land.

[/quote]

Abortion is murder.

Am I free to murder my wife if I wish?

Or my 2 year old?

Is such contrary to the Catholic Faith --absolutely!

Would I think such was ok I was not a Catholic --certainly not.

Is such an issue only for religious persons...for Catholics or other Christians?

NO.

Such is contrary to human nature.

And thus is to be the law of the land.

For all --not only Christians.

One is not to be "legally free" to choose to murder your young at any age or your elderly...etc


#16

[quote="Bookcat, post:15, topic:282683"]
Abortion is murder.

Am I free to murder my wife if I wish?

Or my 2 year old?

Is such contrary to the Catholic Faith --absolutely!

Would I think such was ok I was not a Catholic --certainly not.

Is such an issue only for religious persons...for Catholics or other Christians?

NO.

Such is contrary to human nature.

And thus is to be the law of the land.

For all --not only Christians.

One is not to be "legally free" to choose to murder your young at any age or your elderly...etc

[/quote]

Not everyone agrees that it is murder, just like not everyone agrees that euthanasia is murder.

I can respect the law of the land and I can think both of these practices are immoral. I can choose not to participate in them. They are not compulsory acts. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions or practice euthanasia.


#17

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:16, topic:282683"]
Not everyone agrees that it is murder, just like not everyone agrees that euthanasia is murder.

I can respect the law of the land and I can think both of these practices are immoral. I can choose not to participate in them. They are not compulsory acts. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions or practice euthanasia.

[/quote]

However one cannot support them if they believve they are murder, and one can work to overcome them. Again, if its ok to support muder in the form of abortion, why can't we start supporting infanticide? because its wrong. They are both wrong from the natural law and are detrimental to society. So as Americans who desire the best for America shouldn't we work to get rid of any murder that takes lace in our country? whether everybody recognizes it as murder or not. If its murder, is it really ok to support it? And is it even American to do so?


#18

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:16, topic:282683"]
Not everyone agrees that it is murder, just like not everyone agrees that euthanasia is murder.

I can respect the law of the land and I can think both of these practices are immoral. I can choose not to participate in them. They are not compulsory acts. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions or practice euthanasia.

[/quote]

It would be a mistake to respect this law of the land just as it would be to respect the Nazi law of the land in Nazi Germany regarding Jews.

Both are murder.

It is not open for discussion for anyone anywhere.

Period.

They are to be compulsory prohibitions on everyone.

Just as everyone is to be be prohibited from murdering you or me.


#19

[quote="Bookcat, post:18, topic:282683"]
Both are murder.

It is not open for discussion for anyone.

Period.

They are to be compulsory prohibitions on everyone.

Just as everyone is to be be prohibited from murdering you or me.

[/quote]

They are open to discussion in a democratic society. That's why we have the laws we do.
It's not a Theocracy.


#20

[quote="Adolphus_WC, post:19, topic:282683"]
They are open to discussion in a democratic society. That's why we have the laws we do.
It's not a Theocracy.

[/quote]

I'm just curious, are you intentionally ignoring my posts?


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