Why do they disagree with us?


#1

I have a close friend who is ‘saved’ and we always have deep and meaningful discussions. I became a Catholic just three years ago and I have lots and lots of questions myself, so I’m going to put them on this thread in the hope I get lots and lots of answers. Why do Protestants not believe Mary was conceived immaculately? Do they believe she was Mother of God or not? - I’ve heard conflicting opinions. In relation to confession, how do they explain they scripture ‘to bind and to loose?’ if Jesus did not give his apostles the power to absolve sin? Why do they think Constantine started the Catholic Church? As far as I know, Constantine converted on his deathbed. He legalised Christianity, but did not sit on ecumenical councils and had nothing to do with Church doctrine and there were schools of theology were beliefs were formed prior to his becoming emperor. Apart from Consubstantiation, what other theological differences did Luther have with the Catholic Church, why do Protestants have a problem with three dimensional crosses but one’s without an image of Christ are ok, and why do Protestants think they should not be ruled by Catholics, or is that uniquely a Northern Ireland thing? I hope I haven’t included too much information in this thread. If I have please let me know and I can ‘seperate’ them a bit on new threads.


#2

Yes, separate them please. :slight_smile:


#3

Why do Protestants not believe Mary was conceived immaculately?

My guess would be because they feel it is not clearly taught in Scripture. Another guess would be to rid themselves of anything “catholic”

Do they believe she was Mother of God or not?

Some do some don’t. From my experience more would say that she is not the Mother of God though.

In relation to confession, how do they explain they scripture ‘to bind and to loose?’ if Jesus did not give his apostles the power to absolve sin?

Good question. Surprisingly confession does not come up often in my discussions with protestants. Its mainly Mary, and authority. Maybe a protestant can fill us in.

Why do they think Constantine started the Catholic Church?

So they can reject the idea that the Catholic Church was founded on the Rock that was Peter. If they can give a “founder” other than that of Jesus, than the Catholic claims of being the church that Christ established is false.

why do Protestants have a problem with three dimensional crosses but one’s without an image of Christ are ok?

Well I know the argument is that they tell us we believe that Christ is not risen, which to them is why we have crucifixes. This argument doesnt really bother me because its rather silly.

Most of these things are going to come down to the individual believer. From my experience I have met protestants who didnt mind my beliefs about Mary, or that I wear a Crucifix and they had very little knowledge about the History of the Church let alone the opinion that Constantine founded it. Others though, well you know where it would go.


#4

I would say that some Protestants don’t want to go beyond what is clearly taught in the Bible. You might be able to show them where these teachings are found in the Bible, but unless, it is clearly found in the Bible, they won’t accept it.
They are afraid that they might be led astray, if they accept a believe that is not clearly spelled out in the Bible, enought so that they clearly understand it.
It is not hatred, or ignorance, but they love God so much that they do not want to offend him, and will keep it safe by only believing what is clearly taught in scripture.


#5

runandsew - i do agree with you that protestants are careful to adhere only to the words of the bible (although they use an abreviated canon), but I cannot agree with your reasoning on why. I have noticed that too many protestants are beginning to adhere to heretical teachings (one local “church” left a track saying that baptism wasn’t necessary for the forgiveness of sins), and this is the natural outcome of refusing to follow the Church the Christ himself started while on earth. Do we doubt that Arius and Nestorius were trying to follow their concious and their understanding of scriptures? inspite this fact, they were still wrong in what they said.

I am often sad for protestants because I know that they do not have the confidence that they think they have. their “proofs” are based on a selective reading of the texts disrergarding the context of the passage, and even though some of them claim to be based on the new testament church, they ignore all evidence of what the early church really believed (such as the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, etc)

You cannot argue with someone if you are limited in what evidence you can bring to the table, and to ignore writings contemperaneous to St. Paul as well as historical texts is like refusing to believe that a plane can fly because one does not understand how a jet engine works. The problem is that as Catholics we can no longer have a simple faith, but must understand not only the scripture but the history of our faith, doctrines and dogmas, as well as the reasonings behind disiplines. we must be able to defend ourselves, not only so that we do not question our faith when a hard question comes our way, but so that we can gently lead others back home.

God bless


#6

Scottgun, in response to your request, I’ll start a new thread on Lutherism and absolution. Hope I get lots more responses, It’s really helpful.


#7

The reasons are complicated. Most Protestants would answer “because it is not in scripture”. However there is also a desire to downgrade veneration of Our Lady. Again, there are many reasons for this.

Do they believe she was Mother of God or not? - I’ve heard conflicting opinions.

They tend not to believe it is useful to give her the title “Mother of God”. However they accept that she was the mother of Jesus.

In relation to confession, how do they explain they scripture ‘to bind and to loose?’ if Jesus did not give his apostles the power to absolve sin?

I don’t know what the standard Protestnat position is on ths one. On St Peter, the usual line is that it was a onetime conferral of leadership, not intended to initiate a line of successors.

Why do they think Constantine started the Catholic Church? As far as I know, Constantine converted on his deathbed.

Obviously the don’t like to admit that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus. Constantine’s rule was the time that the church began to be tempted by temporal power, and so a nice place to draw a line between the good primitive church and the bad Catholics. In fact, of course, Constantine just replaced one set of problems with another. There never was a golden age.

He legalised Christianity, but did not sit on ecumenical councils and had nothing to do with Church doctrine and there were schools of theology were beliefs were formed prior to his becoming emperor.

He tended towards Arianism, but didn’t try to use his position to force the issue when it was condemned. Whether he tried to interfere we can leave to the historians to decide - it is not really of any modern-day theological importance.

Apart from Consubstantiation, what other theological differences did Luther have with the Catholic Church,

Luther disliked almost all the sacraments. His vision of the church was completely different to that of Rome. What he thought he was doing was purifying the church of corruption and returning it to a first century simplicity.

why do Protestants have a problem with three dimensional crosses but one’s without an image of Christ are ok,

Images of Christ are considered to be idols.

and why do Protestants think they should not be ruled by Catholics, or is that uniquely a Northern Ireland thing?

A dispute between Irish and British, most of them in fact originally Scottish immigrants to Ireland, has acquired religious overtones. In fact both catholic and Protestant religious leaders have tried to distance themselves from the conflict, so increasingly the sides see themselves as “Nationalists” and “Loyalists”.

I hope I haven’t included too much information in this thread. If I have please let me know and I can ‘seperate’ them a bit on new threads.

Some of the questions could stand deeper answers. But often it helps just to get the basic facts.


#8

On the question Mary the mother of God ,you have a major problem, You either have two Gods or one ,As the bible tells us ,Jesus was Gods son , So Mary could not have been the mother of God Yours michael


#9

AS to the Question , why do Protestants think they should not be ruled by Catholics, or is that uniquely a Northern Ireland thing ? .Quote Many Protestants ,do not want to be ruled from Rome ,For a number of reasons ,They do not believe a church can be a State ,they believe you can only ask forgiveness from God ,And some like me do not believe you have to go to Church to pray ,And your prayers are between you and God ,No body else yours michael


#10

The Bible does say Jesus was God’s son. It also teaches Christ was God incarnate, ‘a manifestation of the living God.’ There is only one God, so there is only one God Christ could have been and he did not cease to be God when he became son and as far as I know, Protestants believe Christ was the incarnate God. I understand what you say in that Protestants have no desire to be ruled by Rome and I don’t believe that you HAVE to go to Church to pray, you can pray anywhere, but I see nothing wrong with GOING to a Church for the purpose of prayer and if you are like me with two young children, it’s a wonderful opportunity to get peace to do it! I disagree that your prayers are just between you and God. God is not an individual experience. When we pray together, we commune with God as a community of believers. Do Protestants not have prayer groups for this very purpose?


#11

I tried to edit my message and failed miserably! I wanted to add that Catholics have no desire to be ruled by those who are intolerant to them and do not respect their beliefs. The Orange Order here believes that Catholics should not be in government as they are inferior to Protestants and are not fit to govern


#12

Protestants have to understand that confession is right in the Bible. Jesus gave His Apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the father. They received Jesus’s own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and said “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHOSE SINS YOU FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN THEM, AND WHOSE SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED.” (John 20:22-23). St. Paul notes that"all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation…so, we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing throughus." (2Cor. 5:18-20). Through confession through a priest, God’s minister,we have our sins forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations. As for our beautiful Blessed Mother, The angel Gabriel came to her and proclaimed “HAIL MARY, FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH THEE”, and she was having the Christ child. We pray through Mary because that honors her son, that is the mother of Christ. We are not worthy sometimes to go to herSon, therefore, we pray for her intercession.


#13

"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt…"
This commandment is to believe in the existence of God, that God exists for all time, that God is the sole creator of all that exists, that God determines the course of events in this world.
"Thou shall have no other gods besides Me… Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…"
One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations. To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve, including any artistic representations of God or any sculpture of a human being. One must not bow down to or serve any being or object but God.
"Thou shall not swear falsely by the name of the LORD…"
This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. This includes four types of prohibited oaths: an oath affirming as true a matter one knows to be false, an oath that affirms the patently obvious, an oath denying the truth of a matter one knows to be true, and an oath to perform an act that is beyond one’s capabilities.
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
thou is to declare of the greatness and the holiness of the Sabbath, and observe each Sabbath day, as God defined for the Jews during the Exodus. Each day of the Exodus, God provided food to the Jews to collect except on the Sabbath. Instead a double portion was provided the day before the Sabbath. One is enjoined from performing work on the Sabbath.
"thou shall honour your father and your mother…"
The obligation to honor one’s parents is an obligation that one owes to God and fulfills this obligation through one’s actions towards one’s parents. This commandment is an interesting development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for instance, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother. Jewish sages note that the 5th commandment, on the border between commandments on relationship with God and those between humankind, is to “Honor your father and your mother…”, and draw lessons from this that a person should respect parents (and by implication, elders) only somewhat less than one would God himself, and that parents should be moral guidance to a person as God is to society.
"Thou shall not murder"
The Hebrew word ratsach, used in this commandment, is close to the word murder; kill is a mistranslation, but it does not translate directly to the word murder. While most uses of the word ratsach are in passages describing murder, in Proverbs 22:13 a lion ratsach a man to death, many argue since a lion cannot murder anyone, murder is a flawed translation as well. Also in Joshua 20:3, ratsach is used to describe death by negligence. A closer translation would be to kill in the manner of a predatory animal. Some Jews take offense at translations which state “Thou shall not kill”, which they hold to be a flawed interpretation, for there are circumstances in which one is required to kill, such as if killing is the only way to prevent one person from murdering another, or killing in self-defense.
Many Protestant and most Catholic Christians hold that this verse forbids abortion; Judaism does not dogmatically regard abortion as murder (c.f Ex. 21:22-23, and Rashi thereon), although Orthodox Judaism prohibits abortion in most circumstances based on several other prohibitions.
"Thou shall not commit adultery."
Fairly simple, although sometimes used against pre-marital sex under the logic that if you have sex with someone you do not intend to marry, you have commited adultery on your future wife or husband.
"Thou shall not steal."
This is not understood as stealing in the conventional sense, since theft of property is forbidden elsewhere and is not a capital offense. It can mean “do not kidnap”.
"Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"
One must not bear false witness in a court of law or other proceeding. Lying is forbidden elsewhere and is not a capital offence.
"Thou shall not covet your neighbor’s house…"
One is forbidden to desire and plan how one may obtain that which God has given to another. Maimonides makes a distinction in codifying the laws between the instruction given here in Exodus (You shall not covet) and that given in Deuteronomy (You shall not desire), according to which one does not violate the Exodus commandment unless there is a physical action associated with the desire, even if this is legally purchasing an envied object.
"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt…"
c


#14

As i do not brake any of the ten sommandments, I have no use of a priest or a church , Plus i am better off out side of society than in yours michael


#15

What did St. Elizabeth call Mary? She was filled with the HS and called Mary, “the mother of my Lord.” Psalm 100:3 tells us that the Lord is God. So therefore, it is biblical to call Mary the Mother of God.

Furthermore, this can be argued logically as well:
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is both God and man.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of Jesus, whom is God and man, must be called the Mother of God. Mary as the Mother of God doesn’t mean that Mary is divine or the originator of Jesus’ divinity.

By affirming that Mary is the Mother of God, we are affirming that Jesus Himself is God. It’s really a biblical, logical, theological and Christ-center statement.


#16

Who Is ST Elizabeth ,as i have never heard of her how do i know what she said, yours michael


#17

Elizabeth, the mother of St. John the Baptist, whom Mary visited. Check out the Gospels.


#18

Which Church made Elizabeth a SAINT, this commandment i have the most trouble with ,"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt…"
This commandment is to believe in the existence of God, that God exists for all time, that God is the sole creator of all that exists, that God determines the course of events in this world.
"Thou shall have no other gods besides Me… Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…"
One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations. To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve, including any artistic representations of God or any sculpture of a human being. One must not bow down to or serve any being or object but God.,Catholics call the Pope holy father ,to me there is only one and thats God ,yours michael


#19

If you don’t break any of the commandments you must be sinless and have no need of God let alone a Priest. You have never wanted something someone else has, you have never had even a bad thought about your parents, you have never said anything that is untrue or uttered a swear word? I can understand you feel you have no need of a Priest and would not pray to Mary, but do you accept Christ was the incarnate God or not? If he was, Mary could be nothing other than Mother of God.


#20

To say you have not sinned…is a sin.

When Jesus breathed on The Apostles, He said “WHAT SINS YOU FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN, WHAT SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED.” this is confession, this is why you do need a priest.


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