Why do we as Christian's not celebrate our Jewish Ancestry?


#1

Given that Judaism is our true ancestry, why do we as Christians not make greater efforts to have more effective dialogue with Judaism?

We are closer to Judaism than any and all other religions.

The Jews were after all God’s chosen people.


#2

hi sixtus;
do you mean as it relates to rituals/holy days…like Passover?


#3

I agree, the more I learn about Jewish Traditions the more I understand my own faith. You really have to be a devout Jew to understand the enormity of Christianity and the importance of what we do and why. Otherwise you are just going thru the motions.

Nothing against Protestants, but they seem to have removed most of the Judaism from the faith and made it ‘all about Christ’. Well Christ was a Jew, he thought like a Jew, understood the scriptures like a Jew, and honored the Father like a Jew. He is the Paschal Lamb. Ask your typical Baptist what that means or what you were, as a Jew, suppose to DO with the Lamb and you will get a bunch of blank stares :confused:

I only wish I knew a Jew, I would love to ask him to come to Mass with me and explain the parallels to the Temple sacrifice!


#4

I am weiry of this topic, primarily, because any attempt to discuss this issue inevidebly becomes marred with people stating that there are anti-semetic tendencies in Christianity.

First of all, in Orthodoxy, and in ancient Catholocism, there is (was) a significant overlay with Jewish worship services.
The Orthodox maintain this practice of Worship, that is embedded in our rituals, and orders of our services.

We respect and emulate ancient Judaism becuase it was the appropriate way to worship God.

As far as effective dialogue goes: There is not much of anything left in respects to ancient Judaism. They have so many branches in their lines now, and most are not very ancient at all.

Modern day Isreal bears no resemblance to the Jews, is founded by secularists, and has nothing to do with Christianity.

Succesful dialogue has been reached with the Protestants and the current Jews, IMO due to political expediancy on the part of the Isrealis, and by the gross perversion of Holy Scripture by the Protestants.

If we look at the ancient relations btw the Jews and the Christians, you can see that the Jews tried very hard to suppress, misrepresent, and deny the divinity of Christ. The relations btw the Christians and the Jewish leadership was very hostile in the early church.

The Christians continue to have many of the first, second, and third century writings of the Jewish leadership that were subsequently whitewashed by the Jews. The writings on the part of the Jewish leadership were vile in respect to Christianity. The Jews went as far as to issue a new “Jewish” OT, vs. the septuagent which they had for over 400 years.

This is one of the main impetuses by St. John Chystostom, to write the encyclical against the Jews.

These ancient relations carried over, and you can see that the “European” Christians, namely the Orthodox and Catholics, have had a lot of resentment, and skeptisism in terms of Jewish relations.

Here in the states, the secularist Jews found fertile ground, with the Protestants, and have them believing all the craziness that is found in protestant apologetics, with the end times etc.

The thing that kept the Jews together for so many centuries was the culture and the religion. Today, the vast majority of the Jews, especially here in the states, are the leaders of atheism and secularism. In orthodoxy, we have a term, “unchurched”, I don’t know what the equivilant is for the Jews, but the level of the unchurched jews is certainly unparralled in history.

As far as needing to be closer to the Jews, and the Jews having been God’s chosen people: I find this an unfortunate state for the Jews. The covenant was extended to all of Humanity, and for this, the Jews crucified Jesus. I see the need to convert all people, Jews included, to Christiantiy.

There is not a place on the planet were the Jews are, that they are not close to Christians. They have all the opprotunity, as does almost everyone else, to find the truth in Christ. I don’t know what other kind of dialogue we could hope for.

May our Lord be merciful to all of us.


#5

As I mentioned, go to an Orthodox Liturgy, there you will find an emense amount of ancient Judaistic practices. The TCM and the novus ordo Mass unfortunatley have very few of these elements.

The Orthodox services have the psalms and the church hymns, called the anavase and katavase. These specifically emulate the prayers that the jews would chant as they took each step, rising up to the temple ( ascension hymns ) and the counterpart prayers/hymns ( hymns of descent ).


#6

Ignorance, ignorance, ignorance. In my 70 years I have never seen such unwaranted ignorance.

All of our readings at Mass reflect our Jewish heritage, in an unbroken line from Adam to the present. The first reading is from the old testament. Next we recite or sing a psalm (from the old testament). The last two readings are from the Epistles and the Gospel. They are read in a three year cycle and cover all of the salient points of the old and new testaments.

If you look at the text (or listen to it with attention) you can see how the lessons of the old testament flow into the life and the words and actions of Christ in the new. Christ often quoted the old testament (which is all we had in His day). Nothing has changed as far as morals are concerned.

The old law of animal sacrifice has been changed to the perfect new law of the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass.

Just as Christ is the “new Adam” and Mary the “new Eve”, the temporary priesthood of Aaron has been changed to the forever priesthood of Melchesedec (spelling?).

If you really get concerned, try reading the Bible for one hour at night. A good Catholic reference Bible references the old Testament to the New. You can make much of the connections yourselves.

Our Catholic Faith is an action faith. Faith is an action word. It does not work by osmosis. You have to work at the faith. Pray, work, learn.


#7

There is no question that the RCC continues to hold many practices common to the early church traditions.

There is also no question that much of it has changed, and the rituals from the early church have been either highly abbreviated or removed from the services.

Yes, the cycles of the readings that our church’s continue to hold, beautifully melt the OT and the NT together.

My point is that many of the rituals have been removed from the RCC. This is in strak contrast to the Orthodox traditions which have not changed, and continue to hold to the ancient judea /christian church.

Your opening line also implies that my entire posting is ignorant.
I adivse that you attempt to be a bit more specific next time, so we can exchange in a better dialogue.


#8

I’m very drawn to the Orthodox Church, for some reason. But I already have to travel 18 miles each way to get to a RCC, I wouldn’t even know where to look for an Orthodox Parish.

The good news is they are in the very beginning stages of building a Coptic Orthodox Church not too far away. I hope I can get permission from the Archdioceses to attend a couple of Masses there. :thumbsup:


#9

who says we don’t? We proclaim a huge chunk of the OT as part of the daily and Sunday lectionary cycle, not to mention praying all the psalms in the Mass and LOTH. Between the lectionary cycle and office of readings OT selections, which are directly related and expanded with the companion readings from the Gospels at Mass and Church father sin OR, we directly recall and celebrate our heritage. The form of the Mass developed from Jewish worship, uniting the sacrifice of temple worship in the perfect sacrifice of Christ in the Eucharist, and the readings, psalms and prayers of synagogue worship.

Please do not make global statements about all Christians doing this or not doing that, inaccurate and unhelpful for purposes of discussion.


#10

One suggestion: study several Hagaddah then rewrite it from a Christian perspective. I did and we use it each year now.


#11

Well, if we’re very liberal in thinking, you would say we worship the same God, but there would make the entire new testament a footnote to the “old” Jewish canon.

IOW, we worship the same God, but we have vastly different understandings of that God. The Jewish writings have a different meaning to us.

A Jewish co-worker went to a Catholic wedding Mass, and he quickly recognized everything as Jewish in origin. This guy loves gold, so the chalice really caught his eye, and then the unleavened communion bread.

I’d be a better Catholic if I had learned Hebrew and read all the writings like the Talmud (commentary on scripture) and the Kadush (I think it’s called).

If you look for my thread mentioning Rabbi David Wolpe, you will find links to some interesting links to contemporary Jewish thought. Start with the links I gave, if you’re interested.

Sure, the Passover Seder is dripping with Christo-centric symbolism.

I’m in love with the Christian “revised” interpretation of Judaism. We are the truly reformed Jews of the world.


#12

I am of eastern europian Jewish decent and am also a Baptist. I know all about Jewish Tradations and temple worship. That is one of the reasons I am Baptist.


#13

I think it’s merely an issue that some people have come to the mistaken conclusion that Semitic social customs that may appear related to religion need to be of interest to Christians.


#14

There’s a careful line to be walked here.

It’s been noted that there is indeed a continuation of Jewish spiritual heritage in the Church, which was placed in her worship in the time of the Church Fathers. To explore that heritage is indeed a worthwhile undertaking.

We must do so with care, though. Judaism today, and the Church today, share a common heritage, that being the Jewish spiritual heritage I spoke of above. As the Church was beginning, the temple in Jerusalem (in fact, Jerusalem) was being destroyed, and the Judaism we see today began developing.

So yes, let us be minful of, and greatful for, the Jewish spiritual heritage of the Church. But let’s be careful not to confuse that heritage with what today bears the “Jewish” label. Some of that is indeed true to the common heritage we share, but some of it is certainly not.

Blessings,

Gerry


#15

Yeah, the Judaism today is a bit different then the way things were back in Jesus’ time. The big stumbling block that we have today is we Chistians believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah, Son of God, and well, the Jews think that’s ridiculous and that we’ve made a big mistake thinking that.

Judaism might be where our Christian roots started, but we are far from it and far different in our core beliefs today…Jesus being Christianty’s main focus. Personally, I have no desire to dialog with those who mock my belief in Jesus Christ.


#16

Not believing what you do is not sharing your religious beliefs its not “mocking” those beliefs. By your logic it follows that you “mock” not only Judaism but also Islamism, Hinduism, Buddhism and all other adherents of all other faiths.


#17

Ok, so what’s the answer to the question, you seem overly qualified.

BTW, I am of Italian decent, doen’t mean I can cook, or speak Italian. Just means I have a history just like everybody else.
:wink:


#18

Well, depends on how you define mock. Maybe I didn’t use the right terminology, sorry. But if I say to a Jewish person “I believe Jesus was the son of God.”, and if he says back, “You’re foolish for believing in Jesus.”…well, I’ve just been mocked. And over the course of my life I’ve heard many Jewish (as well as atheist) folk mock Jesus. Me exclaiming that their religion is foolish, would be me mocking them. I don’t mock other religions…ignore them, yes; turn the other cheek, yes, but not mock. I believe if you have nothing nice to say then stay meek and humble…and quiet.


#19

There’s some real differences between the Jewish religion back when Jesus lived and what it is now. So we have to be careful not to learn about things that aren’t really part of OUR past really.


#20

Well actually the claim that you do not mock Jews and people of different beliefs but merely “ignore” them is interesting considering not only your example of detailing your beliefs about Yehoshua bar Yosef to people of other religions but also in light of Catholic dogma.

Judaism belives that not only can a gentile get to the world to come but that is easier for the gentile then for the Jew as the gentile only has only to adhere to the seven noahide commandments.

Catholics on the other hand (correct me if I’m wrong) believe that theirs is the only one true religion and that people like the Jewish person who did not accept your explanation about the devinity of Yehoshua bar Yosef is cursed and doomed. For countless centuries you have prayed on easter for the poor perfidious Jews and other “heretics”. Over the centuries Catholics have helped Jews reach “true understanding” not by “ignoring” them or “mocking” them but, among other things, forced conversions. An ancestor of mine, a village rabbi and historic Jewish martyr, was burnt alive at the stake for not accepting the “kind” offer to convert to Catholicism.

Of course you can claim, with some irony, that since the Jews gave you your religion (including concepts not found in Judaism like salavation and hell) as well as your God, we perhaps have no one to blame but ourselves.


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