Really? When? And what does selecting an ice cream flavor have to do with good and evil?
Maybe a better question would be why would God allow neurological disorders that result in psychopathy to come into being In the first place instead of why would God allow those things to exist and then forcibly restrain them? The traits behind psychopathy and sociopathy are mostly a factor of the way the brain is wired, it’s not something the person can really do much about without some serious intervention to help them work around it. They deserve compassion for their illness as well in addition to treatment.
I’m guessing that God would allow those things to happen for the same reason any other Bad Thing or illness happens. It’s the nature of the world.
Nothing at all. They have everything to do with freedom of action. It is nonsense to limit free will (freedom of action) to “good” and “evil” actions.
The nature of the world is whatever God wanted it to be.
So Mary never sinned? From my point of view that goes against the Bible. Since it goes against the following verses-
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His word is not in us
1 John 1:10
He gave us free will. He gave us rules. If you love Me, you’ll keep my commandments. Our judgement comes after our death. Just think w each action,”Would Jesus do that?”
We are not home. We are pilgrims. We are passing through an earthly neighborhood that is rife with every imaginable form of violence.
While we are sojourning, do we allow ourselves to be distracted by looking left and right - or do we focus on the prize for completing the journey?
We pray and do works of charity as we pass.
The topic of the thread specified the discussion parameters; I did not say that the only choices between good and evil matter, but they are the ones relevant to this topic. And, again, when and what did you explain?
Maybe. I’m not Christian and I can’t speak from that point of view, but really this thread is just rephrasing the problem of evil, so I’m engaging it as a thought experiment.
Assuming the Christian God, perhaps the purpose of the world requires entropy and change. Nothing could go wrong in a static world where everything ticks over like clockwork, but organisms that lived in that world would be robotics, not life. Life as we know it adapts and grows, and to do so it requires things to not always line up perfectly. If genes never miscopied, we’d never get beneficial mutations. The price of adaptability is that we don’t always get useful mutations or what we get is not adaptive to our specific situation, but we can’t have the good without the bad.
A person with psychopathy is the result of neurological wiring that went awry, but if neurology never went awry, we wouldn’t have Einstein or people with phenomenal memories or any of the other benefits of neurodivergence. So, should we trade off all the good things to avoid the potential for evil? Personally, I wouldn’t. I don’t think the “evil” in the world outweighs the benefits of having things as they are, and the things I would change are within the human locus of control already and not God’s fault.
So, wrapping that back around to God, if humans are made in the “image of God“, perhaps that refers to a capacity for dynamism and Great Good. A dynamic being needs to live in a dynamic world, not a static one. A dynamic world has the capacity to go wrong and so do people, but that’s the trade off God made in setting things up the way they are. The potential for Great Evil has to exist alongside the potential for Great Good or the world is a nonstarter. And if God has bothered to set it up this way, then I don’t think it would make sense for him to hamstring the process by restraining the results after the fact. Those maladaptive results drive other adaptationS as well.
I know it’s the cliche answer to say, “Well, God could have made it some other way”, but maybe not. Maybe God can’t create paradoxes, i.e he can’t make a rock so heavy that even he can’t lift it. If so, I don’t think that places any serious or unreasonable limitation on God’s theoretical power that would warrant the classical response of “well, he’s not all-powerful then”. Near enough.
The question that I’m interested in all of this is whether it’s worth it. Is it worth it to subject billions of sentient creatures to suffering for the sake of a divine experiment? That’s a topic for another thread, though.
Generally speaking I agree with your post, especially being an atheist. The question I presented deals with the omnimax God, namely how can one reconcile God with the “evil” in the world.
But if there is an omnimax God, then everything is his “fault” or “kindness”, both the good and the bad. Furthermore, according to God’s omnipotence the only impossibility for God are the logical contradictions. And there is nothing logically contradictory about having only positive discrepancies in the nervous system, and no negative ones.
Does it go against those out of context versus or against your personal interpretation.
Do you believe that Jesus sinned that would include all have sinned. If you say that scripture says He was sinless, you are correct but than you have scripture contradicting itself. Than you have the problem of babies who die. What sin did they commit?
You have this scripture:
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Do you believe that “all” of Judea went out to Jesus.?
John Chapter 12
19 The Pharisees then said to one another, `You see, you can do nothing. Look, the world has gone after him! ’
Was the whole world there?
Sinners can become non-sinners… b/c of their free will - asked by God to align with His Will
aka - REPENT!
Because God gave us free will. If he were to interfere every time we exercise it, what would be the point of having it? God isn’t a hypocrite. And he doesn’t want robots, either (and neither do I!).
Yea, but sometimes sins are acting like a boomerang, and I think there is that law of sawing and reaping.
The righteous Road is thorny but later you ll reap your harvest and you ll triumph, but sinners and fools miserability will follow with their life movie to eternity, therefore there is nothing more precious on earth than God’s Fear and God’s Wisdom.
Just imagine- the sinners life movie will go to eternity forever.
No another chance.
No another life on earth.
The book of life, or movie of life could be a masterpiece, but no second chance.
All choices thanks to freedom and the countless number of opportunities were neglected forever.
Athanasiy, apart from the Blessed Virgin, God created all of us to be sinners.
MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN John Paul II
“Testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.
Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin (DS 1573).
The Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.
The special privilege granted by God to her who is all holy leads us to admire the marvels accomplished by grace in her life.”
For Mary to commit even one act of sin it was a theological impossibility.
Because God granted to Mary her special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish her God’s gift of destiny/ fate.
If God would willed, He could create us with the privilege of immunity from sin and in this world would be no place for evil and sin.
CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin.
THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
As we see above Athanasiy, we are all sinners because God willed to create us to be sinners for good reason, for the benefit of the entire human race.
If God would willed, He could granted all of us His special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish our destiny/ fate, like the Blessed Virgin.
With the graces God granted to the Blessed Virgin, we all could accomplish the same holy life.
God and His graces wrote the movie of the Blessed Virgin’s holy life.
In the same way, God by His gift of graces Designed and written the movie of our life from all eternity.
God is love. Love in Greek is agape which means to will the good of the other. If we were not free, we could not love. Yet Our Lord does want us to love for it is written:
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. … (St. John 15:9-17, ESV)
Therefore, God allows sinners to be free so that they may be able to choose to love. Freedom is a necessary prerequisite for love. If we were unfree we could not love and we could be morally good or evil, we would be like the lion who kills his mate’s cubs - the lion kills but he does not murder for he is unfree and acts upon instinct.
Now, why does God allow us to be free if we would choose evil? For it seems that it is a greater good for Him to allow us to choose to love than it is for us to be like robots who do His every order but cannot enter into a loving relationship with Him.
I hope this makes sense.
Brother Harshcshah in Christ, there are two types of Free wills.
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL:
This is the type of Free will that most people consider Free will, which means the person choosing his choices and he is the writer of the script of his life, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
The Catholic Church vehemently rejects LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL as follows:
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
As we see above Harshcshah, THE WAY God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
If God himself would not operate in our wills, we could not do even one single good deed in all our life, NEITHER COULD WE LOVE ANYONE.
Thank you for enlightening me on this matter, brother.
Please see my previous comment for background to this comment.
I think in light of what brother @Latin has said I will revise my position whilst still maintaining the necessity of free will for love. Here it is:
The Council of Trent says that “the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam’s fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race” (Sess. VI, cap. i and v).
Now, God moves our will towards the good and towards love. Without Him, we could not do any good and we could not, therefore, love. God is necessary for love for He is love. Yet, for us to truly exhibit agape love it is necessary for us by our consent to co-operate with God. It is a greater good that God allows us to consent and co-operate with Him and thus by implication He allows for us to resist His grace because in freely co-operating with God (without whom we could do no good at all and without whom we would always choose evil) we are able to love. Since " God is love , and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 John 4:16), it is the case that whoever freely consents and co-operates with God to do good and to love “abides in God” and whoever resists God abides in evil, yet it is necessary for a free will (a will moved by God to do good but free to resist Him and His grace) for one to be able to resist His love and refuse to do good. God, thus, allows sinners to be free in the measure that he allows them to resist his grace, for if we are unfree to consent and co-operate with Him by accepting his grace we cannot love. God wants us to love because He wants us to participate in His life. This necessitates that He allows sinners, which we all are, to be free (as defined so as to reject libertarian notions of free will) so that we might be able to participate in His life.
I hope this makes sense.