Why does God force some to be Catholic and create them without free will consent?


#1

Familliar with Pascals Wager? Well for the person who actually took the bet…

For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?


#2

[quote=SocaliCatholic]Familliar with Pascals Wager? Well for the person who actually took the bet…

For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?
[/quote]

How can you be asked to be created without already being being in existence?

God doesn’t force our wills. If someone chooses to seek the lesser good of serving self/creature rather than God/Creator and thereby resents God, that is their choice. The gates of Hell are locked from the inside.


#3

I would say this person is making a lousy bet on the wager because if he is only sticking with the Church to hedge his bet against going to Hell he may find himself being told by Our Lord, “I never knew you.”

Scott


#4

[quote=DeFide]How can you be asked to be created without already being being in existence?

[/quote]

Exactly. This appears to be the most pivitol flaw in Christianity / creationism.

Free will is not truly free will. = Choose Christianity or likely go to hell.

We are given free will over all our actions except that someone cannot choose whether or not they choose to be created for that would take existience to be able to choose.

So we are left with God’s decision to create us even if that person, after being created, uses their free will to complain that they didnt want to be Catholic or created.


#5

[quote=Scott Waddell]I would say this person is making a lousy bet on the wager because if he is only sticking with the Church to hedge his bet against going to Hell he may find himself being told by Our Lord, “I never knew you.”

Scott
[/quote]

Exactly, which is why I was never impressed with Pascal’s wager. To be honest, I don’t know why its taken that seriously as an argument.


#6

[quote=byzmelkite]Exactly, which is why I was never impressed with Pascal’s wager. To be honest, I don’t know why its taken that seriously as an argument.
[/quote]

Here’s an article that discusses the limitations and uses of Pascal’s wager:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303fea1.asp


#7

[quote=DeFide]Here’s an article that discusses the limitations and uses of Pascal’s wager:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303fea1.asp
[/quote]

Thanks, I thought it was a good article. Since I’m teaching Pascal this Fall, I will use the article with my students. I will say this: The Wager is one way of spelling out what is at stake with our belief or unbelief. That has much value I think.


#8

[quote=SocaliCatholic]For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?
[/quote]

This sounds as if it might lead into moral relativism…
I really think the “Well, I didn’t ask for this…” sounds like someone who used to kick, scream and through fits as a 16 year old wanting to use their parents’ car…


#9

[quote=SocaliCatholic]Familliar with Pascals Wager? Well for the person who actually took the bet…

For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?
[/quote]

This is just my opinion (though it is based on personal experience) but it seems you are describing someone who is struggling. God didn’t create them that way - they have become that because of their reaction to life. They have alternatives - both good and bad - and this is where their free will comes into play.

When I was hitting my bottom, I was not a practicing Catholic. But it was to God that I turned and to Him that I cried out for help. I got that help, but struggled for a long time as I learned a new way of life. My choice was to accept the help - but I struggled with what taking that help seemed to mean for quite awhile. This caused me misery and unhappiness which often manisfested in my contempt for those who were not miserable and not unhappy. Well, God did not create the misery, unhappiness and contempt that consumed me during this period of time. I did, by choosing to struggle against the very answer that was given to me when I cried out for help.

Oh, we is a funny bunch - us humans.:rolleyes:


#10

Exactly. This the problem with Christian creationism/theology…Not me.

The burden of proof is on Christians to explain why God would create someone who could not be asked to be here.

[quote=Seeks God]This sounds as if it might lead into moral relativism…
I really think the “Well, I didn’t ask for this…” sounds like someone who used to kick, scream and through fits as a 16 year old wanting to use their parents’ car…
[/quote]

This typical show of pride and ignorance is one of the reasons why I left this forum, and this will probably be my last post.

Your apparent igorance doesn’t understand the depth of my question so you respond with this diatribe.

Before I became Catholic last year, I was full of life and happy, now everything has become dim, dark, and a deluge of igorance of people on this forum and at Church who attempt to belittle people of differing beliefs and honest inquiry.


#11

[quote=SocaliCatholic]Familliar with Pascals Wager? Well for the person who actually took the bet…

For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?
[/quote]

I don’t understand the question. THe imaginary person obviously beliefs enough to think that leaving the Church will doom him to Hell. WHy would belonging to the Catholic Church make such a believer unhappy? I mean he believes in the church, at least according to the above scenario.


#12

[quote=SocaliCatholic]Exactly. This the problem with Christian creationism/theology…Not me.

The burden of proof is on Christians to explain why God would create someone who could not be asked to be here.
.
[/quote]

Um, it’s not a problem. It’s a self-contradictory notion. It’s a no-thing. It’s like asking, “Why can’t triangles be 4 sided? It’s not fair!” :smiley:

God creates us because he knew that we should like it. We don’t all derive the fullness of our existence that we can, but that is our choice. You have to be dishonest to say that you get nothing out of existing.


#13

Before I became Catholic last year, I was full of life and happy, now everything has become dim, dark, and a deluge of igorance of people on this forum and at Church who attempt to belittle people of differing beliefs and honest inquiry.

If you just joined the Church betting that it is right, and not really believing in it than it does you no good.

Also it is not the Church’s fault if you feel unhappy. The Church is a hospital for sinners, this is where we are healed, this is where mankind gains grace. Thus, we must strive to live up to the morals and teachings of the Church-and it is not all rainbows and bunnies. There are happy, good times, but also plenty of hardship and sorrow. Christ said to take up your cross and follow Him. Welcome to the Via Dolorosa. :gopray:


#14

[quote=SocaliCatholic]…
… everything has become dim, dark, …
[/quote]

Everything? I should add that it sounds like you suffer from depression and should seek counseling, preferably from a counselor with a Catholic worldview.

In the mean time, offer your suffering for a special intention that is near and dear to you. If you handle your suffering in a way that is pleasing to God, God may choose dispense blessings because of it.

Remember that we can conquer sin through suffering. Sin results from an over-assertion of self will. Suffering is not something we naturally will, so when we freely accept suffering, we freely set aside our will, and open the doors for God’s gifts.


#15

Before I became Catholic last year, I was full of life and happy, now everything has become dim, dark, and a deluge of igorance of people on this forum and at Church who attempt to belittle people of differing beliefs and honest inquiry.

I hope you’re still reading, even if you’re not posting. It’s not uncommon for people to experience a letdown after becoming Catholic (or experiencing something like a great retreat, etc.) because God wants us to grow. Sometimes, growth involves painful processes, like God taking away the consolations we had enjoyed. The best analogy for it that I’ve heard goes something like this: When we first come to God or have a reconversion, God is like a Father who gives His children candies. Eventually, though, God wants us to choose Him for Who He is, not for what He does for us. It’s like the Father not giving His children the candies anymore. I’m not sure if you’re going through a depression which would be more than just the normal letdown, but I will be praying for you, friend. I’ve experienced some dark times, and I know it can be hard to endure. Please keep struggling, even if it seems like struggling isn’t getting you anywhere right now.


#16

Maybe you should join our party in the cafeteria Catholics Guild. We’re learning to get along even though we don’t always agree…

Open belief systems; you don’t have to be cafeteria Catholic to enter!

Alan


#17

[quote=SocaliCatholic]Familliar with Pascals Wager? Well for the person who actually took the bet…

For those who don’t enjoy being Catholic, nor enjoy life, have much anger that they were not asked to be created but fear leaving the Church just in case they were wrong and risk going to Hell for eternity why then would God create someone who by default lives in unhappiness, contempt, and misery?
[/quote]

GOOD NEWS! Through the Grace of God people can - with varying degrees of effort and outside help - over-write their operating systems and change default settings!


#18

[quote=SocaliCatholic]This typical show of pride and ignorance is one of the reasons why I left this forum, and this will probably be my last post.

Your apparent igorance doesn’t understand the depth of my question so you respond with this diatribe.

Before I became Catholic last year, I was full of life and happy, now everything has become dim, dark, and a deluge of igorance of people on this forum and at Church who attempt to belittle people of differing beliefs and honest inquiry.
[/quote]

No insult was intended, but the ex-cop in me came through. It sounded terribly like. “This game isn’t fair, I’m taking my toys and going home.” My problem with questions like that is that don’t seem genuine - they seem like someone trying to trump someone else or somewhat immature. Again, no insult was intended.

If the question was intended for true introspection, then my obvious response would be another question. You ask: "Why would God create someone who does not want to be created?"
I have two responses.

1.) If you beleive in God, then “Where does your questioning God come from?” As a beleiver you would need to understand that life/creation is a gift and that there is responsibility in accepting things as they are. Your goal in life is to question with regards to understanding God’s gifts of salvation to us. Creation/life is necessary for that salvation. God created you because you have to live that life in a responsible manner.

2.) If you are not a beleiver then it becomes a different spin on the same concept. Do you think that your ability to question why you were created is an example or expression of your free will? Do you beleive that freewill has an origin? How can you not want to be created? The simple fact that you have the ability to express your doubts, animosities, and misgivings is proof that you wish to be created. You cannot (argue if you like, but it’s true) wish to not be created unless you have the desire to think/wish for something unless you have the desire to think/wish for something. You cannot do this unless you had the desire to create thought - i.e. you have to WANT to be created in order to do this. At this point your original question becomes irrelevant.

My last point is in regards to the intent of your origianl question - i.e. the desire to be NOT created seems extremely self-destructive. Why?

SG


#19

[quote=DeFide]Um, it’s not a problem. It’s a self-contradictory notion. It’s a no-thing. It’s like asking, “Why can’t triangles be 4 sided? It’s not fair!” :smiley:

God creates us because he knew that we should like it. We don’t all derive the fullness of our existence that we can, but that is our choice. You have to be dishonest to say that you get nothing out of existing.
[/quote]

nicely stated!
SG


#20

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