Why does god have to predestine people?

Romans 9:22-23; Ephesians 1:4 =(

It really helps if you include the texts of the Scripture references.
Here are the texts:

***Romans 9:22-23 ** What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,*

People aren’t pre “chosen” as much as they are pre “known” to “run to get the prize” 1 Cor 9:24, because God, who is eternal and all knowing has already seen the end before the beginning began. Which we know because the “Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world” Rev 13:8 has pronounced that “the gates of hell will not prevail” against the Church. Matt 16:18

1 Tim 2:4
2 Peter 3:9

If I remember correctly, these speak of God wanting everyone to be saved. Yet, we know that some people are not. If God had predestined us, then God would have saved all of us, because, as the Bible says, that is indeed what he wants. It would be much easier to tell you why God cannot predestine us through logic, but I suspected you wanted something from the Bible, so there you have it. Hope that helps :slight_smile:

If you’re willing to devote some time and thought, here is a good article by Fr. William Most on “Predestination”.
** Take time **- not just a minute or two, but perhaps days - to ponder, grasp, etc.
Pray before beginning; pray when you don’t comprehend something; pray …
Make prayer (conversation with God about everything) a part of your pondering.

Full article.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PREDESTI.TXT

A couple of paragraphs from the above:…

There is no time in God, but one thing may be
logically before another. There are three logical points in His
decisions on predestination:

  1. God wills all men to be saved. This is explicit in 1 Tim
    2:4, and since to love is to will good to another for the other’s
    sake, this is the same as saying God loves us.

  2. God looks to see who resists His grace gravely and
    persistently, so persistently that the person throws away the
    only thing that could save him. With regrets, God decrees to let
    such persons go: reprobation because of and in view of grave and
    persistent resistance to grace.

  3. All others not discarded in step two are positively
    predestined, but not because of merits, which are not at all in
    view yet, nor even because of the lack of such resistance, but
    because in step 1, God wanted to predestine them, and they are
    not stopping Him. This is predestination without merits.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Greetings in Christ,

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetic)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”

Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we COULD LOSE) or to glory (which we CANNOT LOSE). …
1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

With love in Christ
LH.

Your questions and concerns are from your erroneous acceptance of Calvinism. Revert and it will all make sense!

:wink:

:smiley:

Like others said, we believe in predestination. Not double predestination.

It might help you to read on Reprobation to understand the vessels of wrath.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott):

§ 13. The Mystery of Reprobation

  1. Concept and Reality of Reprobation

By Reprobation is understood the eternal Resolve of God’s Will to exclude certain rational creatures from eternal bliss. While God, by His grace, positively co-operates in the supernatural merits, which lead to beatification, He merely permits sin, which leads to eternal damnation.

Regarding the content of the resolve of Reprobation, a distinction is made between positive and negative Reprobation, according as the Divine resolve of Reprobation has for its object condemnation to the eternal punishment of hell, or exclusion from the Beatific Vision. Having regard to the reason for Reprobation, a distinction is made between conditioned and unconditioned (absolute) Reprobation, in so far as the Divine resolve of Reprobation is dependent on, or independent of the prevision of future demerits.

God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)

The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church. The Synod of Valence (855) teaches: fatemur praedestinationem impiorum ad mortem (D 322). It is declared in Mt. 25:41: “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,” and by Rom. 9:22: “Vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction.”

  1. Positive Reprobation

a) Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Huss, and especially Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange (D 200), Quiercy and Valence (D 316. 322) and by the Council of Trent (D 827). Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

b) According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita).

The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God’s desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4; Ez. 33:11; 2 Peter 3:9).

St. Augustine teaches: “God is good, God is just. He can save a person without good works, because He is good; but He cannot condemn anyone without evil works, because He is just” (Contra Jul. III 18, 35).

  1. Negative Reprobation

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man’s will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

  1. Properties of Reprobation

Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.

Ott, L. (1957). Fundamentals of Catholic dogma (pp. 244–245).

Just go by what the Church teaches regarding predestination; the bible was never intended to serve as a catechism. Here’s from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance:**

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