Why does the Church object?


#1

What is the objection of the Church, after it brings someone to know Jesus and getting the person baptized with the Holy Spirit, of letting that person be led by the Holy Spirit to their salvation? Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?


#2

Could you clarify? Because I don’t see anything objectionable per se in that. The problem arises if the person thinks he can override truth divinely revealed to Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.


#3

Who said we had a problem with the Holy Spirit guiding someone?


#4

In what ways have you heard that the Church “objects” to a baptised believer from accepting the grace for salvation? Salvation is an individual choice, though corporate in that Jesus founded a Church with means to achieve salvation (sacraments).


#5

What would the Church say if the Holy Spirit told a person not to call anyone father other than God, that it was wrong to store up for their future, that to kill someone for any reason was wrong?


#6

Dear Kathy,

May God be with you!

So how does the person know that they are truly following Christ? By what authority do they then interpret scripture?

Jesus set up the Church as His body, Christ is the head and we are His body. We are meant to be together. The Bible clearly states that we are to be one Church not millions of people doing their own thing.

We are to pray and worship together. We are to help one another. We have 2000 years of history going back directly to Christ on how we are to pray and worship.

God bless you!


#7

Here we are getting into subjectivity. It is very easy for us to fool ourselves into thinking the Holy Spirit is guiding us when what is actually happening is we are acting on what seems right to us or what makes us feel good. This is why Christ established his Church with a headship on earth (the pope) and a teaching authority (the Magisterium). If you follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church on these issues you cannot go wrong for it is the teaching of the Church on these major issues and is completely reliable for any Catholic to follow.


#8

Probably, that you will have a hard time functioning in society, given that most people refer to the person who conceived them as Father.

that it was wrong to store up for their future

If you feel the Holy Spirit leading you to give away all your possessions, feel free. That’s what the monks and nuns have done, in response to the calling of the HS.

that to kill someone for any reason was wrong?

They would agree with you. Unless someone else was trying to kill you.


#9

Taken in proper biblical context, there is no contradiction between what the Church teaches and who alone is given the authority to properly interpret scripture, the sacred written Word of God. The key is: Proper interpretation of scripture taken in context.


#10

That’s not correct for more than one reason. The Church would not condemn me for killing to protect, say, my son. Likewise, the Church would not condemn for accepting the gift of martyrdom.

The bottom line is this: The Holy Spirit never tells anyone to do or believe anything that contradicts the Church.

– Mark L. Chance.


#11

Then you would have to say that St. Paul did not have the Holy Spirit because he calls himself and others not God fathers. Between Paul and some Joe saying x snippet of Scripture means not to call anyone father, I’ll take door 1.


#12

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

(John 12:48) “He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

Now there is scripture to back up that a person baptized in the Holy Spirit will know Jesus voice and follow and that the Word that Jesus spoke will be that persons judge on the last day. You notice Jesus said the Word not the Church. If a person comes to know Jesus voice, and remember Jesus said that people who belong to him, would know his voice and follow no other. Now if that voice, Jesus, has that person living the Word as it is written. Why would the Church want this person ever to live any other way?


#13

The Church does not want people to live any other way. The Christian should listen to Jesus and follow his voice. The question is: where do we hear his voice. Many people make the claim to be following Jesus’ voice, and yet go off and do mutually contradictory things for the sake of the voice. So, unless we believe that Jesus doesn’t know what he’s saying, we must conclude that there are many well-intentioned people who think they are hearing Jesus’ voice, but, in fact, are not.

So the question comes again? How can we be sure that the voice we are hearing is that of Jesus, as opposed to my own, or worse? The Catholic answer to that question is that we think Jesus established his Church for the purpose of making that voice clear. In so doing, the Church has given us the Scriptures, the living Tradition, and it’s interpretation thereof. What other means will ensure the clarity necessary for sure action? I can think of none…


#14

Note that in the written Word how Jesus identifies singularly with the Church when addresing Saul in the first person post resurrection:

"Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;” **Acts 9: 3-5 ** (RSV)


#15

Jesus also said to his apostles, “As the Father sent me, so I send you” and “He who hears you, hears me.” Listening to the Church IS listening to Christ because the Church now has Christ’s mission.

Christ set up a church, founded on the apostles, for a reason. We are to be part of that church. “Me and Jesus” Christianity has no scriptural foundation. Remember it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth - not the individual Christian.

Once again we see the fruits of Americanized-Christianity in the world. The rugged individualist interpreting revelation for themselves. Individualism is not Christian. Americanized-Christianity: a “Don’t Tread on Me” response to the authority that Christ set up. He who listens to the church hears Christ - He who listens to himself may be hearing Christ but there are other voices that may be speaking too. Your Americanized-Christianity is not a gift from God but from other places. And you don’t have to be an American to be infected with Americanized-Christianity.


#16

the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Catholic Church from teaching error, and it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to guide an individual to any belief or action contrary to clear Catholic dogmatic teaching. We have the personal assurance of Jesus Christ upon that point. If the individual discerns that the Holy Spirit is telling him to interpret scripture in conflict with the Catholic Church, the individual is in error, and will have to consider abandoning the supreme arrogance of putting his personal views against the clear 2000 yr old teaching of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ.


#17

What you have done here is typical of those who follow the “just Jesus and me” way of interpreting Scripture–you have taken verses out of context to force them to say what you want them to say. Plus, you have simply ignored any that balance them with the authority of the Church–the Church Jesus himself established.

Jesus never established a book, and never commanded that one be written. And he certainly didn’t intend for us to follow the OT alone. So, what DID he do? He gave the authority to teach the truth to his Apostles and commanded them to go out into the whole world and teach it to others.

Jesus promised they would be led into the truth by the Holy Spirit and gave them specific charisms to help them do that. I’m afraid you are ignoring (or don’t know about) the real history of the Church and what Jesus intended–a common mistake for those who either know next to nothing about the history of the Church and the NT or who simply choose to ignore it.


#18

Oh-you mean what if the Spirit told us to become Protestants.? Never happen. Christ founded his Church to be the receptacle of TRUFH for all time. the Spirit would never contradict that.


#19

It was actually the Protestant churches at the end of the 19th century who were predominantly referring to ministers as fathers. As I remember, an influx of Irish Catholics made Protestants notice this similarity in addressing ministers, so they changed their custom to separate themselves further from the Catholic Church. So…it is hardly a black and white issue.


#20

Would Jesus have multiple truths? Re-read what you have written above, Kathy, and think about this question.

Now for an example…some Christians believe Jesus’ voice tells them baptism is merely symbolic. Some Christians believe Jesus’ voice tells them it is a venue of His grace. Some Christians believe it is necessary for salvation. Who is correct? **All are Christians and convinced they know Jesus’ voice **and they are following Him. Who is mistaken? Or, if they are all correct, does this mean Jesus has multiple and contradicting truths? I think we would both agree that Jesus would not have contradicting ‘truths’.


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