Why dont Jews....


#1

Why dont Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah?:confused:


#2

Well, first off, not all Jews don’t believe that Jesus was/is the Messiah. :wink:

What you mean is why don’t Jews who do not believe in Jesus not believe in him, yes? It’s complicated. Many simply do not see that he fulfilled prophecy, and so don’t believe.

But, a lot of their disbelief has to do with the history of the Jews in Europe and the truly horrendous treatment they received in many countries. In some countries they were wards of the sovereign and others they were severely repressed and in others they were persecuted mercilessly, and all in the name of Christianity.

Of course, those who committed atrocities weren’t acting as true Christians should, but it has deeply marred relations between Jews and Christians to this day, especially after the unbelievable savagery of the Holocaust and its aftermath.


#3

It is my understanding that it is prophesised that all Isreal will come to belief. It is also my understanding that there is a veil on the heart of Isreal blinding them from the reality of Jesus being the awaited messiah. The veil will be lifted and all Isreal will be saved. There is also a popular belief that this was/is part of God’s plan of salvation.

My question is, is there progress in this direction? I know there are many Jewish converts to Catholicism as well as Jews for Jesus fundementalists. But is the table turning? Is the number of Christian Jews growing significantly larger?


#4

Let’s not kid ourselves. Like Ivory soap 99 44/99% of Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah. Messainic Jews who claim to be Jewish and believe otherwise, are for the most part, Christians. (i.e., they weren’t born from Jewish mothers and they didn’t go through the conversion process).

I think this question was answered on another thread. But…

there’s a threshold question that needs to be asked before that question can be answered. And that is, what is the Messiah to Jews and what is teh Messiah to Christians. They are two very different people. It isn’t simply a matter of “we’re waiting for him to show up for the first time and you’re waiting for him to return.”

The Jewish Messiah is not going to be divine. There’s nothing in our belief system that says the Messiah will be God in the flesh or that he will have any other extraordinary divine powers.

He will be a man, with a biological link to the House of David (through the mother).

He will usher in an era of world peace

He will rebuild the Temple (or oversee the rebuilding of the Temple or the Temple will be rebuilt during his time).

He will preside over the return of all the jews to Israel.

All the world will worship the One True God. All nations will recognize God.


#5

Respectfully, isn’t your scenario but one interpretation among Jewish people as to what the Messiah will be? There isn’t one, cohesive idea on this among all Jews, as I understand it.


#6

That really isn’t the reason. Even in the time of Jesus, what he preached, to the extent it ignored Talmud, was simply not something educated Jews would even think of considering. It had nothing to do with how we were subsequently treated. To ask a Jew to believe that God came to earth as a man, told us we didn’t have to follow the precepts of the eternal covenant, and then died for our sins… is completely alien to Judaism. Imagine if God came back as another person, told you to ignore the New Testament and the concept of original sin, and that all he required from us was that we feed the hungry. How would Christians receive such a message?


#7

What I posted are the generally accepted beliefs about what the messiah will do. It is about as cohesive as we get. I’ve never heard any Jew state otherwise, other than the occassional Jew who does not believe the Messiah will be an actual person, but rather a state of being.


#8

Hi,

We had a man from Jews for Jesus come to our church and teach us about the passover meal. He was born a Jew and did convert. Someone asked him what made him believe in Jesus and he said when he read the book of Ezekiel or Ecclesiastics–not sure which. I think if Jewish people did a prophetic study between what the Torah(that is our OT right??) says and how that was fullfilled in the NT they would believe.

But, what Mijoy said about the Jews being blinded is true. God apparently made it so they were spiritually blind. But, it does say in the NT that He is coming back for His people(Jewish Nation). I think the Jews are on hold right now. This is all in the bible but Im not sure where. Come to think of it I just read something on this in my homework on the book of Daniel. The verse said that when the times of the Gentiles is complete(US) then God will come back for the Jewish people. My homework is in the car. It is in either Daniel, Jeremiah,Revelations . I think that is all that was refernced. Maybe someone will find the info. Now I do not totally understand what this means. Im still studying it.:smiley:


#9

Thank you. I have to wonder what the Messiah as a state of being might be? I’ve never heard that idea before–intriguing.


#10

I believe it is spelled out mostly in Romans 11. The Jewish conversion stories I am aware of (refering to devout, or at least practicing Jews) that have converted are dynamic, deep, rich, conversion stories.

There is a book by Roy Schoeman that is supposed to be released early 2007 entitled “Honey From a Rock”, that is the stories of a number of Jewish converts. I eagerly await this book.


#11

Well, persecution is often brought up as a reason by Jews in print, at least.

And Christians do not teach that “God came to earth as a man” nor did Jesus teach that. The teaching is that God assumed human form when Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb. Man may not be able to become God but God can certainly become man if he so chooses–that is our teaching.

As to original sin, that is a theological construct that explains humanity’s fallen state. Surely Jews believe we humans are sinners, yes?

And wouldn’t believing Jews expect the Messiah to reveal things not fully understood or believed before? Why else have a Messiah–just to bring peace to the earth–without changing human beings in a fundamental way? What would be the point in that? We’d only muck things up again after such a Messiah had died.


#12

I respectfully disagree that Jews would believe if they studied the NT more. I don’t doubt that Jews occassionaly convert to Christian religion. I was saying that most Jews for Jesus aren’t Jews, not that they aren’t Christians. I can tell you personally, that I have studied the Jewish scripture rather intensely for the last 4 years or so, and I never found anything there, in the context of my studies, that made me think that perhaps Jesus was the Messiah. The only time such a thought ever occurs to me is when a Christian explains their view of scripture to me. Without that conversation, there’s nothing in there that jumps out as “pro Jesus” for me.

But, what Mijoy said about the Jews being blinded is true. God apparently made it so they were spiritually blind.

.
Why? I obviously would disagree with this and I never heard that such a thing was part of christian doctrine. On another note, I’m glad to see that you are taking your religion seriously and wish you luck on your studies.


#13

I believe some in the reconstructionist movement hold this. That there will be a “messainic age” of peace and that, I think, that the Messiah will be in each of us. We will each have the ability to usher in an era of peace and universal worship of God.


#14

As a reason for Jew’s not believing Jesus was the Messiah?
I never heard that before. But then again, there’s a lot I haven’t heard yet.

And Christians do not teach that “God came to earth as a man” nor did Jesus teach that. The teaching is that God assumed human form when Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb. Man may not be able to become God but God can certainly become man if he so chooses–that is our teaching.

Ok. But it is still a concept that is alien to Judaism. And it is a much more likely reason why Jews reject the Idea of Jesus as Messiah. If you have read about the Bar Kohba (sp?) revolution, you know that many Jews believed he was the Messiah. ALthough they were wrong, it can be argued that he had fullfilled more of the requirements than Jesus, from a Jewish perspective.

As to original sin, that is a theological construct that explains humanity’s fallen state. Surely Jews believe we humans are sinners, yes?

We don’t believe in original sin. The sins of the fathers are not assumed by the children throughout time in Judaism. We believe we are born without sin. That we all have the evil inclination to sin and that we all have the ability not to act on the inclination.

And wouldn’t believing Jews expect the Messiah to reveal things not fully understood or believed before? Why else have a Messiah–just to bring peace to the earth–without changing human beings in a fundamental way? What would be the point in that? We’d only muck things up again after such a Messiah had died.

We may very will muck things up again. Our mission is to prepare/repair the world for the coming of the Messiah. What makes you think that by revealing things not fully understood, we will stop ourselves from mucking things up again?


#15

The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. They will not be disappointed. He will come.on the last day


#16

And we don’t believe in children assuming the sins of their parents, either. That’s not what original is–it’s the stain or as you put it, the inclination to sin–the imperfection of the human condition due to the fall of Adam and Eve, that we inherit.

We may very will muck things up again. Our mission is to prepare/repair the world for the coming of the Messiah. What makes you think that by revealing things not fully understood, we will stop ourselves from mucking things up again?

I didn’t connect mucking things up with understanding, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. What I meant is that unless we are fundamentally changed from the inside out, not merely shown how to live peacefully (isn’t that what Moses and the prophets all tried to do?), we will once again make a mess of the world. This is why we need to be transformed as human beings by God’s grace. And for us Christians that is accomplished through the graces gained by Christ and given to us in the sacraments he established within the Church.


#17

can we discuss prophecies? like Isaiah (unto us a child is born)ecc?


#18

With due respect, I think this presumes a greater degree of unity and cohesion with Second Temple Judaism than most scholars would admit. As I’ve pointed out before, the Talmud (at least in the sense of the Gemara) wasn’t compiled till centuries later, and even the Mishnaic core is dated to about 100 C.E., if I’m not mistaken. In other words, the key documents of “rabbinic Judaism” are post-Christian, not pre-Christian.

Edwin


#19

I understand why Jews confuse “Jews for Jesus” and Messianic Jews, but these are for the most part two different groups. “Jews for Jesus” if I’m not mistaken are basically garden-variety evangelicals who want to convert Jews to Christianity. Messianic Jews often claim not to be Christians at all, and contrary to what Jews (understandably) think, this is not some kind of Christian sales gimmick. They are genuinely hostile to the historic tradition of [Gentile] Christianity, and are essentially trying to recover the lost tradition of Jewish Christianity from the earliest centuries of the common era.

Just a note. I really appreciate your fair-mindedness on what I know is a very sensitive issue for Jews.

Edwin


#20

OK here is another ignorant question…
why is this topic so sensitive to jews?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.