WHY DONT WE FIGHT BACK??


#1

Last I heard us Catholics are about 1,200,000,000 strong and there are around 800,000,000 Protestants. That makes up 1/3 of the population of the earth.

Why is their even persecution? Put together that is a huge ARMY!! If I was some dood in the Sudan, I wouldnt want to mess with a 2 Billion strong Army by martyring the Christians…So why arent they afraid of our numbers???

Oh maybe its because we dont really do anything and who is scared of as little sissy that welcomes persecution?..why do we act this way? Where did Jesus teach us to WILLFULLY accept persecution?? Didnt Jesus teach us to love our neighbor?? Why dont we protect eachother??

I keep running into this mindset that we just have to accept whatever befalls us WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO OVERCOME BY THE ABILITIES GOD HAS GIVEN US…its like a roll over and take it attitude among Christians.

The Jesus I read about in scriptures, the Jesus I know said …‘Now I say to you, he that has no sword let him sell his garment and buy one’…

What else is a sword good for other than combat???

So the question is…WHY DONT WE FIGHT?


#2

I pray we are all practicing spiritual warfare. I believe God has requested us to join in active duty.


#3

A sword is a tool which should be used to help people.

Kenshin


#4

[quote=threej_lc]A sword is a tool which should be used to help people.

Kenshin
[/quote]

EXACTLY my point, when you find out your brothers and sisters are being slaughtered wholesale by some evil little tyrant in a 3rd world country, you come bring the sword to help Gods people. Not out of an evil motive, but a motive of love for God’s Church.

Is sitting on your fanny and doing nothing loving your neighbor??

Somebody is dying either way, why should it be us always?


#5

[quote=SojournerOf78]The Jesus I read about in scriptures, the Jesus I know said …‘Now I say to you, he that has no sword let him sell his garment and buy one’…
[/quote]

In Matt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

The verse you are referencing is Luke 22:36. However, if you back up to Luke 22:35 it reads: 35 He also said to them, “When I sent you out without money-bag, backpack, or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Not a thing,” they said. 36 Then He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a backpack. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.

Jesus is telling his followers that it is going to be dangerous to be his disciple. Buying a sword is said more “toung in cheek” read on:

38 “Lord,” they said, “look, here are two swords.” “Enough of that!” He told them.


#6

Because we are the Mystical Body of Christ…he was persecuted in this world, so shall we…and Christ said to rejoice if we are persecuted for his sake.


#7

[quote=dhgray]In Matt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

The verse you are referencing is Luke 22:36. However, if you back up to Luke 22:35 it reads: 35 He also said to them, “When I sent you out without money-bag, backpack, or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Not a thing,” they said. 36 Then He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a backpack. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one.

Jesus is telling his followers that it is going to be dangerous to be his disciple. Buying a sword is said more “toung in cheek” read on:

38 “Lord,” they said, “look, here are two swords.” “Enough of that!” He told them.
[/quote]

I beg to differ Davis…God people have ALWAYS been called to be like Christ from day one…yet His people were constantly fighting in battle against the heathen…

What youre implying is akin to the people in Maccabees 1 who decided not to fight on the Sabbath and got slaughtered, then the Maccabees said…forget this, well fight on the Sabbath and they were given victory by God…were they not also called to Love God and Neighbor??? Werent they called to suffer injustice and seek the Lord??

They understood somehting that we have fogotten here in America…your ememies HATE YOU, your enemies want to DESTROY you…thats what makes them enemies…yet we are called to love them you may say…hjow can I love my enemies when I finally rise up in battle against them??? God also said to love your neighbor…how can you love your neighbor when you stanmd by and watch him and his family get slaugtered when you could have done something???

Yes God told us there would be persecution…did He also say that youre supposed to welcome it?? The Jews were usually physically persecuted by every nation around them, it happened,yet God fought for them in battle, yes real battle that killed people…in fact MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN if I am not mistaken, were ordered to be executed by our God…maybe its time we stop acting the fool and realize were getting slaughtered because were too wuss to do anything about it and Satan has convinced us that (Contrary to everything the scriptures teach) that it is somewhat noble to sit back like a wuss and let your countrymen and your brothers and sister in Christ get persecuted without a fight.

Why do we offer the heathen more mercy than Gods people???

Whats wrong with all of you?youd rather NOT fight against evil and let evil overcome your own people because you think it is honorable…

Yet in doing so you allow and encourage evil by your lack of resistance, maybe when we all get pissed off at US and Bin Laden for destroying the towers and murdering thousands of people we shouldremember that we allow such things as Catholics because…oh you know, thats just the way it is…we shouldnt fight back…


#8

[quote=dhgray[color=black]]
[/quote]

38 “Lord,” they said, “look, here are two swords.” “Enough of that!” He told them.
Learn something new everyday.

I’ve always seen it translated as “That is enough,” and never read the footnote.

I love learning something new!!! Thank you!


#9

[quote=Timidity]Learn something new everyday.

I’ve always seen it translated as “That is enough,” and never read the footnote.

I love learning something new!!! Thank you!
[/quote]

Yes well according to Dhgray Jesus told them to buy swords with his tongue in His cheek then when the idiots grabbed some real life swords he bagged on them…

Im not buying it.


#10

**SojournerOf78, I enjoyed you very eloquently posted message. Well as I like your reference to the Maccabees, might I also remind you of what happened in the Garden when Jesus was arrested? If we pick up the sword and fight in the name of Christ, we will be no better than the Islamic militants and terrorists. Did we not learn our lesson during the Crusades? **


**In a war, NO ONE WINS (I know, I am US Army retired). **


******You stated there are **2 Billion “Christians” in the world, how many of them would actually pick up a weapon? We need to fight this fight from with in. We need to strengthen our own army. We need to reach out to those who are not on either side. We need to evangelize the non-believer. We need gather our forces and make a stand.

I once heard a priest say, “The only reason we have abortion in this country is because of the Catholics. If each parish had sent one, just one, bus load of parishioners, we would have shut Washington down and the Supreme Court would have had not choice but to vote in favor of pro-live.”

I agree with your passion. They attack and we go to church and pray, the convert our children and we go to church and pray, they are taking over our country/world and we go to church and pray. WE NEED TO GET OFF OUR KNEES and take action. However, I do not think violence solved anything. You can use force to get them to change their actions, but until you get them to change their hearts, you have done
nothing. We need to evangelize the other side.

God Bless you,
Davis

P.s. where are you from?


#11

[quote=SojournerOf78]Last I heard us Catholics are about 1,200,000,000 strong and there are around 800,000,000 Protestants. That makes up 1/3 of the population of the earth.

Why is their even persecution? Put together that is a huge ARMY!! If I was some dood in the Sudan, I wouldnt want to mess with a 2 Billion strong Army by martyring the Christians…So why arent they afraid of our numbers???

Oh maybe its because we dont really do anything and who is scared of as little sissy that welcomes persecution?..why do we act this way? Where did Jesus teach us to WILLFULLY accept persecution?? Didnt Jesus teach us to love our neighbor?? Why dont we protect eachother??

I keep running into this mindset that we just have to accept whatever befalls us WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO OVERCOME BY THE ABILITIES GOD HAS GIVEN US…its like a roll over and take it attitude among Christians.

The Jesus I read about in scriptures, the Jesus I know said …‘Now I say to you, he that has no sword let him sell his garment and buy one’…

What else is a sword good for other than combat???

So the question is…WHY DONT WE FIGHT?
[/quote]

Hi Sojourner:

What is the reference for “Now I say to you, he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one?” I was going to look it up in the commentary section.

I am not a pacifist. I believe in legitimate defense and coming to the aid of my neighbor when in danger of limb and life.

As it comes to the literal meaning of the word “sword” you might want to consider what Jesus said in Mat. 26, 52 when the intent was to use it as an attack weapon: Put back your sword in its place; for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.

We might be a huge army, but we are certainly not a very effective one. The greater part of this army is as flabby as can be.
Wasn’t it the Devil who told St John Vianney that if there were only 10 of his kind, they would conquer him in this world.

Why is there even persecution? Because of what it says in Eph. 6, 12: For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the Principalities and the Powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness on high.

The Militant Church on earth does not use vigorously enough the weapons at its disposal as it is described in Eph 6, 10-17 as The Armor of God. Furthermore, as Christian, we donot stay in shape with the exercises necessary to enter this (spiritual) battlefield: prayer, lots of it, (just read a private revelation that we should say each day 15 decades of the Rosary, how many pray even one Rosary?) Fasting, sacrifical denials, offerings, etc.

We as christians are supposed to live as sojourners (citizens) in this world, but not as *citizens of this world. *Most of us are just that, citizens of the world. We have become indistinguishable from the rest of the people of the world. How often have you not heard the song: And they know we are Christians by our love, by love - and they know we are Christian by our love. Don’t you almost want to say: “Where? Where are these loving Christians?”

I can understand your indignation why we as Catholics don’t have greater influence on society. I have felt the same many times. However, if you want to see a Catholic in action wielding his sword valiantly and effectively look up William Donohue at www.catholicleague.org.

If we as Catholics want to become more effective we have to do it Jesus’ way: fight the battle on a spiritual level. Our powerbase will spread when each catholic makes a drastic change in lifestyle. And then I wont feel so silly singing And they know we are Christians by our love, by our love…:slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Theodora

.


#12

Your numbers are misleading. There may be 800m Protestants, but so what? They openly ignore most of what Jesus did, and are wildly inconsistent among themselves.

As for 1.2b Catholics, how many of them avail themselves of the sacraments and reject all the heresies, such as modernism? There are probably a few million faithful Catholics, the world over. Just a few million. Even that may be wishful thinking. Suppose, for example, that there are 5000 per state in the United States. That seems like a high figure, but would amount to 250,000 in the United States. Are there really a few million others around the world? The true number may be down to a million or fewer. This would explain the abysmal level of influence.


#13

[quote=csr]Your numbers are misleading. There may be 800m Protestants, but so what? They openly ignore most of what Jesus did, and are wildly inconsistent among themselves.

As for 1.2b Catholics, how many of them avail themselves of the sacraments and reject all the heresies, such as modernism? There are probably a few million faithful Catholics, the world over. Just a few million. Even that may be wishful thinking. Suppose, for example, that there are 5000 per state in the United States. That seems like a high figure, but would amount to 250,000 in the United States. Are there really a few million others around the world? The true number may be down to a million or fewer. This would explain the abysmal level of influence.
[/quote]

Your conjecture has no bearing on my question…unless you are trying to say we are too small of a band to fight a war


#14

Who is this “we”? Christians are not united among themselves, acting directly contrary to Christ’s command, so how would you expect them to unite for the purpose of mounting a crusade? Who would arm, train, transport, feed, equip, command and pay for this army? If the strongest best equipped military machine in the world, having demonstrated its inability to achieve anything remotely resembling decisive victory in Ethiopia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, can’t achieve dominance and effectiveness, what makes you think a Christian coalition can do it?


#15

[quote=CSR]Your numbers are misleading. There may be 800m Protestants, but so what? They openly ignore most of what Jesus did, and are wildly inconsistent among themselves.

As for 1.2b Catholics, how many of them avail themselves of the sacraments and reject all the heresies, such as modernism? There are probably a few million faithful Catholics, the world over. Just a few million. Even that may be wishful thinking. Suppose, for example, that there are 5000 per state in the United States. That seems like a high figure, but would amount to 250,000 in the United States. Are there really a few million others around the world? The true number may be down to a million or fewer. This would explain the abysmal level of influence.
[/quote]

[quote=SojournerOf78]Your conjecture has no bearing on my question…unless you are trying to say we are too small of a band to fight a war
[/quote]

Sojourner, I agree with CSR’s assessment of the “troops” as you would have them be called. There really aren’t that many devout Catholics out there ( heavy sigh). And of CSR’s calculations, I believe many would be elderly and women and those in religious vocations. Not really a suitable physical army. In fact, have you read the thread about taking care of your temple?

YIKES, man! You’re not going to get a competant physical army out of the likes of us scally wags.

So let us focus on the spiritual level, where we really can serve God the best way we can and fight more powerfully than a physical amry could ever do. WE fight pricipalities, not men.

Let’s don our rosaries and get to Adoration and confession and fight!


#16

Sojounerof78…my old friend…we may disagree at times, but you are still my brother…and I like this post. I agree with what you are saying, but I think the answer lies not in our numbers, but the fact that so many within our ranks are indifferent to what is going on in the world. They are afraid of personal persecution, therefore they don’t stand up for their beliefs…same as Peter, when he denied Christ 3 times.

[quote=SojournerOf78]Last I heard us Catholics are about 1,200,000,000 strong and there are around 800,000,000 Protestants. That makes up 1/3 of the population of the earth.

Why is their even persecution? Put together that is a huge ARMY!! If I was some dood in the Sudan, I wouldnt want to mess with a 2 Billion strong Army by martyring the Christians…So why arent they afraid of our numbers???

Oh maybe its because we dont really do anything and who is scared of as little sissy that welcomes persecution?..why do we act this way? Where did Jesus teach us to WILLFULLY accept persecution?? Didnt Jesus teach us to love our neighbor?? Why dont we protect eachother??

I keep running into this mindset that we just have to accept whatever befalls us WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO OVERCOME BY THE ABILITIES GOD HAS GIVEN US…its like a roll over and take it attitude among Christians.

The Jesus I read about in scriptures, the Jesus I know said …‘Now I say to you, he that has no sword let him sell his garment and buy one’…

What else is a sword good for other than combat???

So the question is…WHY DONT WE FIGHT?
[/quote]


#17

[quote=csr]Your numbers are misleading. There may be 800m Protestants, but so what? They openly ignore most of what Jesus did, and are wildly inconsistent among themselves.

As for 1.2b Catholics, how many of them avail themselves of the sacraments and reject all the heresies, such as modernism? There are probably a few million faithful Catholics, the world over. Just a few million. Even that may be wishful thinking. Suppose, for example, that there are 5000 per state in the United States. That seems like a high figure, but would amount to 250,000 in the United States. Are there really a few million others around the world? The true number may be down to a million or fewer. This would explain the abysmal level of influence.
[/quote]

In all actuality, we could leave the numbers out…I seem to remember quite a few times where Gods people fought 10, 20, 100 X their own numbers and still had victory, it was just to illustrate a point.

It all comes down to the “Jesus told us to lay down” mentality that so many have today, how pathetic can we get?


#18

[quote=jrabs]I pray we are all practicing spiritual warfare. I believe God has requested us to join in active duty.
[/quote]

I agree fight with prayer and don’t stop. It is so sad to see the lose of all these Catholic’s.
I was not aware of the number being so high.
But after the visit we had from a priest from Sudan, I have been praying to St. Martin Deporres quite a bit to intercede.
Pray, pray and pray some more and when you get to tire to pray go to sleep praying…
God chose us all to be his apostles, to work hard for him and prayer is a part of that work.
We must continue on brothers and sisters to fight the good fight, keep the faith, and finish the race… :smiley: (My favorite St. Paul quote)
It can be done…


#19

Why only America? Why not the rest of the world. And I say fighting produces not a thing, but destruction and death. The church is in fix, with many people praying to bless murder.


#20

[quote=777]Why only America? Why not the rest of the world. And I say fighting produces not a thing, but destruction and death. The church is in fix, with many people praying to bless murder.
[/quote]

I read your other post on my topic about protecting your neighbor.

On that post you said it was ok to watch your neighbor get “martyred” instead of try and protect him which is AGAINST the teaching of the Catholic church as found in the Catechism…

so apparently your pacifism only produces destruction and death to the innocent whereas someone that fought against the agressor would be punishing the guilty and then delivering him to the police or whatever necessary authority.

Maybe you should rethink your position, it might get someone killed someday.


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