Why dont you like the church?

I am seeing lots of people who dont like the church or converted out of it, so my question is why dont you like the church? Or what teaching dont you like ; that you “feel” there is no basis for?

As for me: I consider myself Catholic, born and raised, but when I started college years ago I took a better look at the church and found many flaws so I just stepped back a bit.

Key phrase there “when I started college”. That’s the age we all become smarter than eveyrone else around us. I was told by an older fella one time I use to work with, he said “A 1st year apprentice is a know it all, and a 4th year graduate knows it all.”

And are the flaws you find in the Church with her doctrines or with individual people?

There are two general teachings that I strongly dislike:

  1. Certain people deserve happiness while others don’t.

  2. Principle should reign over results in ethical matters.

(2) is just a flaw in logic. Obviously things are good and bad based on their results, even if you believe the result is to become closer to God. Think about it: would killing still be wrong if it weren’t sin–if it didn’t separate you from God? Christians say all the time that something is wrong because it harms your relationship with God, which is a result.

(1) is far more grave, in my opinion.

I do not care for the Church. I do not really hate it, or dislike it, I do hate some of its members, but I also like some of them.

I don’t like most of its teachings, but thats just cause I am an un-believer :p.

What church teaching is this. Perhaps you’re getting at something about individual judgment, who knows? It’s hard to take criticisms seriously if you don’t make any effort to first understand and state clearly the view your criticizing. You seem to think that actions have consequences and those consequences are important. Why not here?

Don’t know what this means either. What if you have a principle that results are all that matters for morality? What does it mean for that principle to reign over results? How does any principle ever reign over results? There’s a metaphor I’m missing here.

(2) is just a flaw in logic. Obviously things are good and bad based on their results, even if you believe the result is to become closer to God.

Really hard to understand (2) as a flaw in logic. Usually, since logic involves inference, flaws in logic are errors in reasoning, but (2) is not an argument, it’s just an assertion. There are of course some principles that we think of as principles of logic, e.g. the law of excluded middle, or some principles about identity, but they don’t seem to be involved here. I take it that all you mean is that (2) is obviously false, but since I don’t know what it means, I’m hard pressed to say.

Things are good and bad based on their results? My blood pressure medication box is a thing, so you’re saying that my blood pressure medication box is good or bad based on its results? What are its results?

Think about it: would killing still be wrong if it weren’t sin–if it didn’t separate you from God? Christians say all the time that something is wrong because it harms your relationship with God, which is a result.

So christians don’t really think that “principle reigns over results”? Now I’m even more confused.

So everyone deserves happiness, regardless of how they live their lives?

Of course killing would be wrong, even if it were not for religion telling us so. Why do you compare what is right or wrong vs. sin/no sin. They are completely two different things. Every child without religion would grow up with different views of what is right or wrong. Some would comit crimes they would think are ok, that you believe should be wrong. However, most of them would believe killing is wrong, without religion. Religion just gives a more distinct moral compass to follow, that brings us closer to God.

If you could follow your natural instincts of what is right or wrong, united with what religion teaches you just become a stronger person.

Neither of these are teachings of the Church.

Well I started college when I was 35 but even before college I was smarter than everyone else. :wink:

both

Therein lies your problem. Your not as smart as you think you are, dont confuse common sense with intelligence. Regardless of intelligence, a degree is just a piece of paper that says you did your homework. The Bible is a holy book beyond your intelligence that says you have not.

In my experience, most of the people who do not like the Church do so for one of three reasons:

  1. They have no idea what the doctrine is. They were told church “doctrine” by those who have no idea or an axe to grind against the church. I have many protestant friends who tell me all of the time what Catholics believe and are not even in the right ballpark. It goes back to another quote (paraphrase) of the great Archbishop Fulton Sheen: “People do not hate the Catholic Church. They hate what they believe the Catholic Church is. If the Church was what they think it is, I would hate it too.”

  2. They know what the doctrine is but have no idea about the philosophy behind it. In other words, they do not see the logic behind it so feel it must not be there.

  3. Doctrine interferes with their worldly desires (divorce).

Sadly I am sure you believe that; its easy for people to tell themselves what is above to avoid a actual intellectual thought.

Sheep being led to the slaughter because of a misguided church.

:shrug:

Actually, it is your statements that avoid intellectual thought. You provide no argument to why we are “sheep being led to the slaughter” or the church is “misguided.”

Physician, heal thyself.

Hardly, with all the knowledge in libraries and the Internet it is highly unlikely your observation holds any weight. Your statements makes it easier for people like you to comprehend why someone would leave the church. Calling us all intellectually inept, having too much intellect, or being unable to comprehend is just a tactic. A very lame one.

Your own tactic of seeming to imply that any one who stays with the church is lacking in intellect is equally lame and weak.

Let me take these one at a time.

Hardly, with all the knowledge in libraries and the Internet it is highly unlikely your observation holds any weight.

Hogwash. Most websites that are not run by Catholics but are about Catholicism are the internet equivalent of Chick Tracks (see my #1 in previous posts). Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of non-Catholics are not spending their time on authentic Catholic websites unless it is to go on them to begin arguments.

As far as libraries are concerned, I am not exactly seeing Protestants/Bhuddists/Atheists getting trampled on their way to the “Religion” section for a copy of the Catechism.

*Your statements makes it easier for people like you to comprehend why someone would leave the church. *

Like me? Who are people like me? If anything, you have revealed far more personality traits to extract motives from than I have in my two very short posts.

Calling us all intellectually inept, having too much intellect, or being unable to comprehend is just a tactic. A very lame one.

Please use your library or internet resources to look up “straw man” and then perhaps we can disuss what is “lame.”

Mass is boring and long.

When I walked away and still believed, the biggest issues were, Mary’s assumption, necessity of confession to a priest, invalidity of marriages, of Catholics, who marry outside of the Church, medals, Saints and the real presence.

Mass is boring and long - possibly the all time winner for profound reasons why as to leave the church. Think our mass is long? Pop along to an EO Divine Liturgy - be prepared to be there around 2 hours or so minimum though.

  1. They concluded that they live in a natural world, absent of any supernatural phenomena, let alone any evidence for the existence of a supernatural God. This God, that remains invisible, yet can read our every thought and personally intercede in our lives.
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