Why don't you think it's not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?


#1

Why don’t you think it’s not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

Why do you think that is?
Are they ignorant? Or do they have a valuable excuse?

We, as Catholics, of course know that we have had the same bible since the beginning of, well, the bible. Luther came along and deleted books. Therefore, Protestants deny the Holy Spirit’s guidance, do they not, of the creation of the bible?


#2

In most Protestant versions of the Bible, they have not deleted books but deemed them Apocrypha.

The larger question remains why so many limit their understanding of Scripture to a handful of favored verses and ignore the whole sweep of it. The Bible is salvation history; it is not a fortune cookie.


#3

To answer a question with a question: In what way is it obvious to you that the ‘Catholic Bible’ does contain the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

In short, there is no ‘obviously complete’ Bible. If you are like most people in this matter, then before ever you investigated the issue, you received the Scriptures as God’s Word on the say-so of others.

It was only when the question arose that you pursued the reasons for the Catholic canon of the Scriptures. And those reasons resonated with you, matching up with truths you already knew and accepted.

But those who use a 66-book Bible – for the most part – have accepted what they have received, and have never had reason to suspect that they are missing anything.

Why should they think so? (Remember – you used the word, “obvious!”)

Now, there are some who have had the question raised, and have asked an apologist, and received an answer that satisfied them.

And then there are some who have had the question raised, and have researched the subject for themselves, and did not find the reasons for the Catholic canon to be convincing.

And then there are some who have had the question raised, and did discover the canonicity of the “other books.” And some of them have followed that first thread of truth into the Catholic Church.

But at the face of things, your question mainly answers itself: there is nothing obviously deficient in canon66 per se.

Regards,
Joe


#4

In the area I live(Harlan County,USA)most people are not aware that the KJV orginally had the other books or when and why they were removed.There have been Protestant churches in this area that have split over the KJV and the NKJV.I have spent a few yrs.explaining Biblical history,our view of Mary,explaining that we do not worship Mary,Communion of Saints,Sacrimentals etc.Mostly to my co-workers(all Protestants)and neighbors(all protestant).These people Love our Lord as much as you and I.They have been taught some horrible things about the Catholic Church.They,like you and I,don’t want to be led astray.Their parents,grand-parents etc have handed down these traditions.I could historically blow some of their doctrines up.I am very careful because:1.If I offend by just throwing out facts,I have lost them.2.I respect their beliefs and don’t make it a challenge to them personally.3.My goal is to share the truth not to prove I’m right.This takes time,and a Lot of Charity and Longsuffering.


#5

Because it’s not something that they arrived at on their own. They are only following along with what their preacher tells them,


#6

Luther did not delete books from a Bible that did not exist yet.

The first infallible and authoritative canon, addressed to the entire church, was formulated at Trent.

“The Tridentine decrees from which the above list is extracted was the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon, addressed to the Church Universal.”

“The most explicit definition of the Catholic Canon is that given by the Council of Trent
(New Advent, newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

"According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Chruch at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon.

That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent."

(New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. II, Bible, III (Canon), p. 390; Canon, Biblical, p. 29; Bible, III (Canon), p. 390, Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat)

“…an official, definitive list of inspired writings did not exist in the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent” (Cardinal Yves Congar, Tradition and Traditions, p. 38)

"The Tridentine list or decree was the first infallible and effectually promulgated declaration on the Canon of the Holy Scriptures (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, H.J. Schroeder (English translator of Trent), (Rockford: Tan, 1978), Fourth Session, Footnote #4, p. 17).

“The question of the “deutero-canonical” books will not be settled before the sixteenth century. As late as the second half of the thirteenth, St Bonaventure used as canonical the third book of Esdras and the prayer of Manasses, whereas St Albert the Great and St Thomas doubted their canonical value.” (RC historian George H. Tavard, Holy Writ or Holy Church: The Crisis of the Protestant Reformation (London: Burns & Oates, 1959), pp. 16-17.)

Trent formulated their canon, and thus the Bible for Catholics everywhere, after Luther died.

You cannot “delete” books from a canon that had yet to be created.


#7

Oh, well, in that case, Trent infallibly defined which books are divinely inspired, and you don’t have all of them in your abbreviated edition.

:thumbsup:


#8

I was handed a bible at age seven. That was the bible. It never crossed my mind that there was some other bible. Why would there be some other bible? The bible was very important and special. Everyone treated it nicely. The bible was central. Clearly when they lovingly gave you the bible, then they gave you the bible. Adults aren’t out to trick and deceive their children on subjects like this.

I only found out that someone out there had a different bible when I joined the Catholic Church. In other words, it never crossed my mind to remotely suspect there was another bible until someone placed this other bible in my hands and there it was.

(I did know there were other translations, though).


#9

You may ask Jesus Christ the same question.

Some facts:

1.The oracles of God in the OT were given to Israel, and NOT Rome (Rom3:1-2)

  1. All orthodox Jews in 2008 as in 400BC accept 39 books as canonical. ALL were written by Jews. No Roman wrote a single book

  2. A Jewish OT in 2008 as in 400BC begins with Genesis and ends with 2 Chronicles. This is a matter of FACT

  3. NO Orthodox Jew accepted the Apocrypha as belonging to the canon.

  4. A Hebrew OT written in Hebrew, contains 3 sections the “Torah”, the “Naviim” and the “Kethubim”.
    AKA “the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Psalms)”

Jesus Himself established the canon and divisions of the OT:

Mt 23:35…“blood righteous Abel [GENESIS] unto the blood of Zacharias”[2Chronicles]

Lk 24:44…"which were written in the Law of Moses[TORAH], and in the prophets[NAVIIM], and in the psalms[KETHUBIM]

It seems that according to the Council of Trent, 4th Session, April 8, 1546) not only are ALL Bible believers, Jewish and Protestant alike under a curse but also the Lord Jesus Christ Himself!

Now, why a King James Bible ends with Malachi and not 2 Chronicles is something only a true Bible believer can answer.


#10

Christ, the Apostles, the martyrs, and the early church did just fine without Trent.

We all still manage without the very late arriving Trent.

:thumbsup:


#11

Teflon,

The larger question remains why so many limit their understanding of Scripture to a handful of favored verses and ignore the whole sweep of it. The Bible is salvation history; it is not a fortune cookie.

You obviously have never dealt with TRUE Bible believing Christians before.

A verse taken out of context becomes a pretext-of course one should study and rightly divide the word of truth as commanded by St Paul (2Tim 2:15)


#12

wardrandolph,

most people are not aware that the KJV orginally had the other books or when and why they were removed.

Evidently you are just as misinformed.

The Apocrypha was NEVER accepted as the inspired word of God by any TRUE Bible believer. The Apocryphal books were placed between the OT and NT in the 1611 edition of the King James Bible. They were not part of the canon of Scripture but were placed there like study notes in a Catholic Bible-neither being inspired!


#13

How do you know that to be true? This is a very sweeping statement which is simply incorrect.

Who told YOU that the Apocrypha is the inspired word of God?

It certainly wasn’t the Lord Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost who is the author of the Holy Scriptures!


#14

The day you can show me from SCRIPTURE ALONE the mass, prayers to Mary, sacraments etc I will gladly return to the Catholic faith that I was brought up to believe in.

BTW My parish priest taught us at school that ALL protestants were heretics and would burn in hell!

I agree with you 'speak the truth in love"


#15

I’ll gladly do so when you can prove to me “from SCRIPTURE ALONE” the Sola Scriptura formal sufficiency of the scriptures. By all means knock yourself out.

BTW My parish priest taught us at school that ALL protestants were heretics and would burn in hell!

And he was quite right, because if you or any such have been confronted with the truths of the Catholic faith and willingly reject them then you will account for that to God. It is entirely possible that you put your souls in jeopardy.

I agree with you 'speak the truth in love"

[FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]1st Peter 3:11 Let him decline from evil, and do good: let him seek after peace and pursue it: 12 Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things. 13 And who is he that can hurt you, if you be zealous of good? 14 But if also you suffer any thing for justice’ sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled. 15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

16 But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better doing well (if such be the will of God) to suffer, than doing ill.[/FONT]


#16

I have never had any of the hundreds and hundreds of protestants that I have discussed various topics with. Ever tell me that they spent 30 years in the Holy land as a Biblical expert or archeologist and have come to the conclusion that… NO, every one has said “My pastor say’s” or “I asked my pastor about that…” They accept their pastors opinion, which may or may not agree with the founder of their denomination a few hundred years ago.
For us as Catholics we believe that it is the Holy Spirit and Christ speaking through the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church in her Councils and Magisterium. Supported in all instances by discoveries in Biblical research and archeology.


#17

I deal with them all the time, here on the Forums and living in the Bible Belt.

The trouble is “rightly divide”—“Bible-believing” Christians do not agree on doctrine and dogma, despite allegedly believing in the Bible. This can be seen in their response to key passages such as John 6 or James 2, where they hew to the extra-Biblical interpretation of their favorite Reformer just like most other Protestants do.

The only thing novel about “Bible-believing” Christians is the brand name. Even the arrogance (because they call themselves “Bible-believing”, presumably Christians who disagree with them do not believe Scripture) is old news. It is the bluster of those arriving 2,000 years too late on the scene to have any credibility.

Put in “Bible-believing” Christian terms, one cannot have a “valid hermeneutic” without apostolic succession.


#18

John 6, the Eucharist and the Mass:

1: After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2: And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3: And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4: And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5: When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6: And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7: Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8: One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him,
9: There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10: And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11: And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12: When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13: Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14: Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16: And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17: And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18: And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19: So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20: But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21: Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22: The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23: (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24: When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25: And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26: Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but **because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27: Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. **
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
**41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. **59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Do you believe what Scripture says? Do you believe Christ?


#19

Teflon93 - I guess they don’t like John 6…hmmmm.
jofa


#20

You know the verses for Sola Scriptura just as well as I do so I’m not going to waste my time with that one.

Do you deny that the Levites were the custodians of the Holy Scriptures?

Do you deny that a Hebrew ‘Bible’ in 2008 contains the same books as the KJB?

Do you deny Christ’s ex-Cathedra statement on the canon and divisions of the OT?

I guess you do.

Thank you for confirming that I am a heretic who is going to burn in hell.

Maybe you could spend some time in prayer and fasting that the Lord would forgive me for trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ ALONE plus NOTHING for the forgiveness of my sins.

*Pax Vobiscum *


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