Why has the Catholic church drifted from it's roots?


#1

I am in a discussion with someone and their position is that today’s Catholic church is not the church that Christ established because it does not do the things that the original church did. Namely … [list=1]*] First century Christians did not employ “Rosaries”.

*] First century Christians did not sell scapulars.

*] First century Christians did not participate in pedobaptism (if so,show me book,line,verse … their ‘demand’, not mine)

*] First century Christians did not worship or pray to Mary (book, line, verse)

*] First century Christians baptized by immersion…the very word baptize means “to immerse”.[/list] … As always, any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


#2

[quote=Sir Knight]I am in a discussion with someone and their position is that today’s Catholic church is not the church that Christ established because it does not do the things that the original church did. Namely …

[list=1]
*] First century Christians did not employ “Rosaries”.
*] First century Christians did not sell scapulars.
*] First century Christians did not participate in pedobaptism (if so,show me book,line,verse … their ‘demand’, not mine)
*] First century Christians did not worship or pray to Mary (book, line, verse)
*] First century Christians baptized by immersion…the very word baptize means “to immerse”.
[/list]… As always, any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

Your profile says Roman Catholic and if that is the case you should know your proposal here is ridiculous.

First century christians also didn’t have a new testament nor did they have the purpose driven life nor did they have the what would jesus do jewelry or have american pop gospel music nor did the first century christians have denominations seperate from the church of the apostles.
The bible is silent on pedobpatism it does not deny the practice or affirm explicitly it but it implies it by the fact entire families were baptized. Since there was no birth control then you would be hard pressed to find a family without small children. But we do not find anywhee the denial of child baptism. WE do however have early christian encryptions that infant baptism was practiced form 70-90 Ad Saint John would have been alive during that time.
We don’t worship Mary.
The apostles didn’t pray to Mary in the Bible becasue she was alive.Tradition says she left earth at age 101 this would be after all the books in the Bible were written.
Read the didache about Baptism the apostles taught there were several ways to baptize this document is from 60-90 AD.

Baptize means literally "to dip."
There is more than one way to accomplish this.

Immersion - we agree here.
The drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another - this would be baptizing by pouring.
The icons form the second century have John the Baptist not immersing Jesus but pouring water over Jesus thus to dip by using his hands and sometimes illustrate by using a clam another early christian artifact used to baptize. THis we know by history and archaelogy. And what get me here is that most protestants who nitpick about this think baptism is symbolic anyway so why the protest its just a symbol if its actually means something than you should make something of it. Perhaps deep down inside you know it is a real sacrament.

Anyways I am sure my friend here can provide Biblical arguements but I am tired of the usual so I am trying to use some common sense here not that I can prove common sense to you anyhow.


#3

First-century Christians did not have a complete New Testament.
First-century Christians did not speak English.
First-century Christians did not use microphones and sound systems.
First-century Christians did not have chapters and verses
First-century Christians did not use paper.
First-century Christians did not use electric lighting.

In order to be truly rooted according to their definition, they should meet daily in their homes, break the bread and speak Aramaic (if they’re from Palestine) or Greek (if they’re from anywhere else). They should use oil lamps if they meet in the evening, and everything should be read from the Old Testament written in the original Hebrew on papyrus, and some of the letters of Paul in the original Greek. Anything else is a deviation from the first-century Church Christ founded.


#4

Most importatnly First century Christians were not “Protestants”.
They would not be know until the 16th century.
Now if your so concerned with numbers think about how Real Christiantiy disapeared for 1500 years.


#5

[quote=Sir Knight]I am in a discussion with someone and their position is that today’s Catholic church is not the church that Christ established because it does not do the things that the original church did. Namely … [list=1]*] First century Christians did not employ “Rosaries”.

*] First century Christians did not sell scapulars.

*] First century Christians did not participate in pedobaptism (if so,show me book,line,verse … their ‘demand’, not mine)

*] First century Christians did not worship or pray to Mary (book, line, verse)

*] First century Christians baptized by immersion…the very word baptize means “to immerse”.[/list] … As always, any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

  1. Yes, they did. They weren’t called Rosaries at the time, but then again the Trinity wasn’t called the Trinity then either. First century Christians, as well as Jews even before Christ, used to use a chain of beads to count out psalms as they were prayed. In the first few centuries, the chains were shortened to include only some of the psalms (they were formerly 150 bead chains, 1 for each psalm). Later on, people began saying Hail Marys instead of the psalms.

  2. They didn’t wear necklasses with crosses on them or have crosses on their churches, either. In fact, today we no longer use the fish symbol which was almost a universal indicator of a Christian gathering in the first century. Protestants do all of these things. Things like the scapular are only symbols and signs of devotion, just like modern day crosses. These are simply things which have developed over time which act as symbols and do not effect in any way our manner of worship or differentiate it from early Christian worship. They worshipped Christ without needing a sign on their buildings with a cross on it, and we worship without the fish symbol. None of this has anything to do with worshipping God. This is hard for me to put into the right words for you to just copy but I am assuming you get my point.

  3. Yes, they did.

The issue of infant Baptism is not discussed explicitly in the Bible, but it is likely that there were babies in the households of Lydia, Stephanus and the jailer at Philippi, where Paul baptized entire families (Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:29-34 and 1 Corinthians 1:16). In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul alludes to infant baptism when he tells us that Baptism has replaced circumcision. Circumcision took place on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). We know that early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, “that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible” (Cyprian, Epistle 64 (59), 2).

We have no record of early Christian writers condemning infant Baptism. However, much is written in support of it. Irenaeus, who lived from 140-202, and was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John wrote, “Christ came to save all who through Him are born again unto God, infants and children, boys and youths, and aged persons” (Against Heresies 2, 22:4). Origen, who lived from 182 to 255 wrote, “Baptism is given even to infants” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3).

As for the practice of pouring water on the forehead instead of total immersion, this too was a practice of the early Church. We read in the “Didache,” which was written somewhere between the years 70 and 150, that those being baptized could be immersed in water, but if it wasn’t practical, “sprinkle water three times on the head” (2:7). Tertullian, writing in the second century, describes Baptism as, “a sprinkling of any kind of water” (Baptism 6:1). Many who were converted in prison were baptized this way.

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

See catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp for a summary

see catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp for quotes from early Church fathers

See also web.archive.org/web/20030604152502/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ398.HTM (if you want a headache)

and ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ96.HTM

and ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ191.HTM


#6
  1. Modern Catholics do not worship Mary. First century Christians asked Mary to pray for them, which is what modern Catholics do.

This is such a huge topic. Try these sites out

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM#34)%20The%20Blessed%20Virgin%20Mary%20The%20Blessed%20Virgin%20Mary)

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM#39)%20The%20Communion%20of%20Saints%20The%20Communion%20of%20Saints)

  1. Yes, they absolutely without a doubt hands down did.

The Didache, which is a very early Christian writing (as early as 70 AD) and is believed to be the instructions of the Apostles themselves suggests sprinkling.

The Didache was written around A.D. 70 and, though not inspired, is a strong witness to the sacramental practice of Christians in the apostolic age. In its seventh chapter, the Didache reads, “Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” These instructions were composed either while some of the apostles and disciples were still alive or during the next generation of Christians, and they represent an already established custom.

The testimony of the Didache is seconded by other early Christian writings. Hippolytus of Rome said, “If water is scarce, whether as a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available” (The Apostolic Tradition, 21 [A.D. 215]). Pope Cornelius I wrote that as Novatian was about to die, “he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring” (Letter to Fabius of Antioch [A.D. 251]; cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:4311).

catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp

Remind them that early Christians never used the word Trinity either. Also remind them that early Christians **usually didn’t have any Scriptures and never had the New Testament or a Bible. They certainly didn’t give sermons when they worshipped. They didn’t read the gospels. They did almost nothing Protestant churches do. How then are these fellows worshipping like first century Christians?

Also remind them that Christ told us “the gates of Hell will never prevail” against it (Matthew 16:18). Therefore, present them with this. Christ’s Church, in its true form, has always been around since Christ. If the true Church was ever nonexistant, then that means Christ lied. Therefore, there must be one moment in history where the Catholic Church ceased to become the true Church and Protestantism became that which was right. Since Protestantism has only been around since the 1500s, and since the Catholic Church of the 1400s prayed Rosaries, baptized infants by sprinkling, asked Mary for intercession, and all of these other things, this must mean the true Church was already around back then. It’s not enough to say that it is Christ’s “invisible” Church that would always survive, because until the 1500s EVERY single Christian worshipped as Catholics in the Catholic way. This means that if the Catholic Church of the 1400s was not the true Church, then there must have been the true Church somewhere where true Christians worshipped. Where was it?

Remember: be charitable, be caring, pray, and MAKE SURE you are more concerned with Christ and with the truth coming to these people, even if not through you, than you are with winning an arguement! :)**


#7

Great post… :slight_smile:


#8

[quote=Lazerlike42]4) Modern Catholics do not worship Mary. First century Christians asked Mary to pray for them, which is what modern Catholics do.
[/quote]

The St. Joseph prayer is also from the first century.

As for infant Baptism, there are inscriptions on 1st century tombs givng the Baptism dates and ages of children less than 1. On a side note, there are also inscrptions on these tombs asking for prayers–prayers for the dead!


#9

Ask them if they only meet for worship underground in catacombs or in remote, secluded spots at odd times, such as dawn. If they say no, ask them why they aren’t doing things like the original church did.


#10

The Catholic Church has remained the same. People have changed. Some external things like Rosaries have been added which enhance our faith journey within the Catholic Church.


#11

Let us not forget the parable of the mustard seed; did the mustard plant “drift from it’s roots?” No, it grew, Jesus told us that it wouldn’t look like the seed. Living things grow, if you saw a mother holding a little baby and asked how old it was, and she said, “Oh he’s 31 years old today!” That wouldn’t be normal - it would be a deformity! The Church is living, and it grows as well…it’s roots have not “drifted” but it has grown like Christ intended.


#12

Thank you for your replies – they proved to be most helpful. :thumbsup:

[quote=Maccabees]Your profile says Roman Catholic and if that is the case you should know your proposal here is ridiculous.
[/quote]

[quote=Maccabees] not that I can prove common sense to you anyhow
[/quote]

Thank you for your charitable comments :rolleyes: I get this from Catholic-bashers when I try to defend the Catholic church – I didn’t expect it from members of my own faith. :frowning:


#13

[quote=Sir Knight]Thank you for your replies – they proved to be most helpful. :thumbsup: Thank you for your charitable comments :rolleyes: I get this from Catholic-bashers when I try to defend the Catholic church – I didn’t expect it from members of my own faith. :frowning:
[/quote]

Sir Knight, I absolutely agree with you - and on behalf of people who spoke harshly to you while representing the Holy Mother Church, please accept my apology. You were asking for help, not hate - I would have needed help with some of those questions also and my profile also reads Roman Catholic.

Thank heavens for the others on this forum - they are true Catholic Christians.


#14

[quote=Sir Knight]I am in a discussion with someone and their position is that today’s Catholic church is not the church that Christ established because it does not do the things that the original church did. Namely …
[list=1]
*]First century Christians did not employ “Rosaries”.
*]First century Christians did not sell scapulars.
*]First century Christians did not participate in pedobaptism (if so,show me book,line,verse … their ‘demand’, not mine)
*]First century Christians did not worship or pray to Mary (book, line, verse)
*]First century Christians baptized by immersion…the very word baptize means “to immerse”.
[/list]… As always, any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

My adivce is you dont argue with others about our Fatih. As a rule of thumb I ignore anyone who feels they need to tear down my Faith in order to promote theirs. When discussing religion with Protestants I like to find areas to discuss we agree on rather than waste time arguing about what we disagree on.


#15

[quote=estesbob]My adivce is you dont argue with others about our Fatih. As a rule of thumb I ignore anyone who feels they need to tear down my Faith in order to promote theirs. When discussing religion with Protestants I like to find areas to discuss we agree on rather than waste time arguing about what we disagree on.
[/quote]

It’s very important that we try to show the truth to Protestants. We should not deliberately limit ourselves to only discussing areas where we agree on because if we do we are disobeying God’s command to share the Gospel and the truth. We shouldn’t start fights with people, and if a person won’t listen we shouldn’t force them to, but so long as they will listen we must speak truth and not avoid it for fear of disagreement.


#16

Freedom is a difficult right, & we tend to take it to extremes.


#17

[quote=LSK]Thank heavens for the others on this forum - they are true Catholic Christians.
[/quote]

do not be so touchy…
(this is not a personal message).


#18

[quote=Sir Knight]I am in a discussion with someone and their position is that today’s Catholic church is not the church that Christ established because it does not do the things that the original church did. Namely … [list=1]*] First century Christians did not employ “Rosaries”.

*] First century Christians did not sell scapulars.

*] First century Christians did not participate in pedobaptism (if so,show me book,line,verse … their ‘demand’, not mine
[/quote]

)

*] First century Christians did not worship or pray to Mary (book, line, verse)

*] First century Christians baptized by immersion…the very word baptize means “to immerse”.[/list] … As always, any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
SK!
If you’re gonna deal in apologetics, you need better info and to have it at hand. It’s time to put some cash where your mouth is (so to speak) and get The Beginning Apologetics Series from San Juan Catholic Seminars.

Also, sooner or later you’ll realize that Sola Scriptura is the crumbly foundation of most all n-C beliefs and so long as you play their game by their rules you get into jams like this one.

BTW the answer to the Rosary and baptism questions are on the CA mainpage library and so is the stuff on Mary, But this link to ScottHahn.com may also help.
Pax tecum my friend!


#19

Regarding batism by immersion:
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day three thousand souls.

Recall that this was in Jerusalem, outside ther Senacle on Pentacost. There is no river in Jerusalem. How did Peter and the Apostles baptize three thousand men by immersion in the middle of Jerusalem?
Common sense gets them every time.


#20

Bear in mind also that when archaeologist dig up old Greek ruins, they inevitably came across places of worship. More often then not, they found the baptismal fonts in these places to be no more than 18 inches deep (to the rim, the water would have been shallower). Sort of kind of hard to totally immerse in water that shallow.

There’s also a fresco in the Vatican that dates back over a 1000 years (I believe over 1500 years) that shows a baptism. The person being baptized in standing in water up to his knees.

NotWorthy


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