Why has the Vatican II Changed the idea of measuring time in Purgatory by Years?

If you’ve read TAN books, you could see that time required in Purgatory for certain actions where measured by years, decades and even centuries! When, and why did the Vatican II refute this concept? I know that God’s time is different then ours, but that doesn’t mean it’s mathematically impossible to estimate what Purgatory time would be in earth years.

[quote=PMV]If you’ve read TAN books, you could see that time required in Purgatory for certain actions where measured by years, decades and even centuries! When, and why did the Vatican II refute this concept? I know that God’s time is different then ours, but that doesn’t mean it’s mathematically impossible to estimate what Purgatory time would be in earth years.
[/quote]

PMV

Where did you hear that Vatican II refuted the concept of time in purgatory and where does the Tab book you mention get this concept? Without these sources, one cannot fully answer your question.

However, based on snippets I have heard over the years, I may be able to give a partial answer.

When it comes to purgatory, a person there is no longer bound by the notion of time as we perceive it. The person is in (or on the way) to God’s kingdom which resides outside of our concept of time. What seems like years here may be only seconds in purgatory and vise versa.

Another thing you may want to consider. The estimated time in purgatory is pure speculation at best. As far as I know, and I may be wrong, no private revelation on time in purgatory has ever been recognized by the Holy See. And, even if it was, one is not bound to believe in any private revelation.

I hope this helps.

PF

Based on what I think I know, WanderAimlessly has supplied a good answer. I do know that TAN books offer some authentic Catholic books.

When we were very young we had no concept of “time” other that our earth- based time. But now we have a better idea of what it is to be “outside” of earth time. We hear and read that God ( a spirit) is outside of our time frame.So isn’t the spirit of a man outside of earth time?

It’s blurry, but I recall reading on some site that informed about the Vatican that it changed the concept of measuring Purgatory time in earth days, years, decades ect. Also, with the Vatican II measuring Purgatory time is never done(correct me if I’m wrong).
However, the books that do mention these concepts include “Charity for the Suffering Souls” and “Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints.” I know no one *must *accept personnel revelations, but is the Holy See actually *against *measuring Purgatory time?

Hi PMV,

It is a common mistake to believe that the Church remitted “days” and “years” in purgatory. Firstly, in the spiritual world, there is no space or time. The duration of purgatory is something beyond space and time.

Secondly, when the Church gave an indulgence of say, 5 years, it meant that the person receiving the indulgence was in a position to earn the same merits that an ancient Christian would have earned had he/she performed some prescribed good works for a period of 5 years. (In those days, there were “set” penances. For example, a person might have to stand at the door of the Church before services asking for the prayers of the faithful. This could have been for a certain amount of months or years)

Because of the confusion with “years in purgatory”, Pope Paul VI (not the Council) decided to abolish this kind of indulgence. They have been replaced by “plenary” and “partial” indulgences.

The efffectiveness of these indulgences depends entirely on the disposition of the person receiving them : the degree of detachment from sin, the commitment to a better life, etc. etc.

Finally, it should be pointed out that the Church claims no jurisdiction on the souls in purgatory.We can “apply” our indulgences to the souls in purgatory but it is God’s privilege to make this effective according to His own criteria.

You can read a “Primer on Indulgences”, by by clicking here.

Verbum

%between%

As far as I have read, Vatican II didn’t change any of that… it was the typical “spirit” of Vatican II and the dumbing down of all things Catholics seen in the post-VII Church. Of course, it is ridiculous to change something that has developed by Tradition simply because it is “too complex” for some people. The peasants in the Middle Ages that couldn’t even read had no problem understanding it! (Or at least they didn’t complain about it.) If it is not too complex for them, then it is not too complex for anyone. And even if it were, the fact that it is is a stupid reason to change it. Not everyone has to understand everything in the Church. Just tell them to memorize the prayers and say them many times. If they don’t understand what the days or years or whatever is attached means, then so what?

[quote=WanderAimlessly]PMV

Where did you hear that Vatican II refuted the concept of time in purgatory and where does the Tab book you mention get this concept? Without these sources, one cannot fully answer your question.

However, based on snippets I have heard over the years, I may be able to give a partial answer.

When it comes to purgatory, a person there is no longer bound by the notion of time as we perceive it. The person is in (or on the way) to God’s kingdom which resides outside of our concept of time. What seems like years here may be only seconds in purgatory and vise versa.

[/quote]

Correct. This would explain how the thief on the cross would see Christ “in paradise” the same day. Some attempt to refute the concept of Purgatory with this verse, but it does no such thing - it simpy reveals their lack of understanding.

[quote=Philthy]Correct. This would explain how the thief on the cross would see Christ “in paradise” the same day. Some attempt to refute the concept of Purgatory with this verse, but it does no such thing - it simpy reveals their lack of understanding.

[/quote]

Paradise was not Heaven nor Purgatory, Paradise was in Hell and was the waiting place where all the righteous who died before Jesus’ sacrifice waited for Him to redeem them. Remember the Apostles Creed

… suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.

Paradise was located in Hell until the Ascension of our Lord. The people who were in Paradise did not need the purification therefore, when Paradise was moved to Heaven, the people in Paradise went to Heaven as well.

See Catechism 1023

Also for a real good explanation check this site.
cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm

PMV:

I’ll give you the explanation that convinced me of Purgatory (yep, I’m one of those).

None of us here, except the Great Saints and a few others, are ready to enter the presence of God “As Is”, even the Bible says:

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

I Corinthians 15:51-54

[quote=PMV]It’s blurry, but I recall reading on some site that informed about the Vatican that it changed the concept of measuring Purgatory time in earth days, years, decades ect. Also, with the Vatican II measuring Purgatory time is never done(correct me if I’m wrong).
However, the books that do mention these concepts include “Charity for the Suffering Souls” and “Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints.” I know no one *must *accept personnel revelations, but is the Holy See actually *against *measuring Purgatory time?
[/quote]

The scripture says that this will seem to us (when contrasted with the eternity of absolute bliss in the Presence of what we call “The Beatific Vision”) to be an instance or a twinkling of an eye.

Purgatory isn’t neartly as much about punishment as it is about purification and preparation.

Remember, Even Moses, the Lawgiver and Writer of the Torah (according to Orthodox Judaism), wasn’t allowed to see G-d’s face.

"The LORD said to Moses, “This request, too, which you have just made, I will carry out, because you have found favor with me and you are my intimate friend…But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives. Here,” continued the LORD, “is a place near me where you shall station yourself on the rock. When my glory passes I will set you in the hollow of the rock and will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand, so that you may see my back; but my face is not to be seen.”

Exodus 33:17,20-23

Towards the end of his life, St. Thomas Aquinas was allowed to see this for a moment while saying Mass. The brothers in his monestary were shocked to here a “Thudh” from the sanctuary and see an incoherent St. Thomas babbling in a pool of his own blood. “Straw! Straw! All I have ever written is straw compared to the imcomparable joy I have just experienced!” said the recipient of the Stigmata as he regained coherency.

St. Thomas died a few weeks later, having not written so much as another word.

Purgatory is there to make sure that we’re ready for the experience that God couldn’t allow Moses while he was on this earth and that even blew the mind of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Does that make it a little clearer about why trying to describe it in terms earthly time is probably not very useful.

Blessings and Peace, Michael

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