Why haven't any LDS (Mormon) leaders exposed their church as a fraud?


#1

Today as I sat in an LDS sacrament meeting (I no longer consider myself LDS, but a relative asked my wife and I to attend his mission farewell) I began thinking about what is riding on the claims of LDS and Roman Catholic leadership, and a question that has long troubled me: *If the LDS faith is not actually what its leaders claim, why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles and prophets, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

The RCC points to tradition and apostolic succession for legitimacy, but they don't seem to emphasize modern day guidance and revelation, at least in the way that the LDS faith does. On the other hand, the LDS leadership claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. What exactly this means and how it works is undefined, but we can be sure that they claim God speaks to them in some abnormal sense.

I can see how, even IF the Roman Catholic Church is not the True faith, it could have perpetuated while the believers even at the top remain honest and good people. The pope, other clergy, and laypeople simply believe they are part of something good and valid that was revealed 2000 years ago. They don't see themselves as being guided in the same way that Mormons do.

On the other hand, the LDS leaders, both past and present, claim to have modern day revelation guiding the organization. *If they are not actually what they claim to be why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles, have admitted it is fraudulent? *


#2

The easiest, and most direct answer is... If you keep repeating the same story over and over, eventually you believe it, whether it is true or not.

Most practicing mormons, when faced with questions they cannot answer simply reply with their "testimony". I think this is there way of dealing with the inconsistencies, falsehoods, etc.

Also, since all of the mormon presidents sit on the board of directors of large corporations, raking in huge salaries, it would look to good for them to step up and say they are in charge of a huge fraud.


#3

I would suggest you read B.H. Roberts. He was a dedicated polygamist, and his committment to the church outweighed his doubts. He also received $$ for his work for the church-- as historian. His testimony at the Smoot hearings was also interesting. He said--paraphrasing--that if he left the church he would lose caste, and he couldn't do that.


#4

[quote="twopekinguys, post:2, topic:300300"]
The easiest, and most direct answer is... If you keep repeating the same story over and over, eventually you believe it, whether it is true or not.

Most practicing mormons, when faced with questions they cannot answer simply reply with their "testimony". I think this is there way of dealing with the inconsistencies, falsehoods, etc.

Also, since all of the mormon presidents sit on the board of directors of large corporations, raking in huge salaries, it would look to good for them to step up and say they are in charge of a huge fraud.

[/quote]

Josef Goebels, the Nazi Minister of Propaganda (1932-1945), who invented Mass Media Hype, once said: "If you tell a lie often enough, it soon becomes the truth".


#5

[quote="truthseeker32, post:1, topic:300300"]
Today as I sat in an LDS sacrament meeting (I no longer consider myself LDS, but a relative asked my wife and I to attend his mission farewell) I began thinking about what is riding on the claims of LDS and Roman Catholic leadership, and a question that has long troubled me: *If the LDS faith is not actually what its leaders claim, why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles and prophets, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

The RCC points to tradition and apostolic succession for legitimacy, but they don't seem to emphasize modern day guidance and revelation, at least in the way that the LDS faith does. On the other hand, the LDS leadership claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. What exactly this means and how it works is undefined, but we can be sure that they claim God speaks to them in some abnormal sense.

I can see how, even IF the Roman Catholic Church is not the True faith, it could have perpetuated while the believers even at the top remain honest and good people. The pope, other clergy, and laypeople simply believe they are part of something good and valid that was revealed 2000 years ago. They don't see themselves as being guided in the same way that Mormons do.

On the other hand, the LDS leaders, both past and present, claim to have modern day revelation guiding the organization. *If they are not actually what they claim to be why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

[/quote]

Mormon leaders believe that they are guided by the holy spirit (or equivalent there of) when they make important decisions.

Because they are merely human beings, these decisions are often inconsistent; whereas when Catholic bishops gather in an ecumenical council, the teachings are perfectly consistent with previous teachings.

Mormons, not wishing to contradict the will of God, just accept that God occasionally changes his mind. Its not that they are "frauds", they are just grasping at straws trying to understand the will of God without the help of His true church.


#6

The Answer is easy: Why would they? They have it pretty good. They are worshipped everywhere they go, they have all their travel paid for, they have a ton of power in Utah and everywhere there are Mormons. One word of truth and it all collapses.

But they know.

That is why they refuse to escavate Palmyra. They KNOW nothing will be found. That is why Gordon B Hinkley spent hundreds of thousands of Church dollars to hide the Hoffman forgeries that HE did not believe were forgeries.

They KNOW. But they will never tell.


#7

Maybe they simply don't believe it is a fraud.


#8

I can buy the idea that some of them convince themselves it is true, but I don't buy the idea that all the men who have held such positions in the LDS church do so for material gain, especially because some forego benefits they would have received outside the church. My grandfather, who has been a high ranking LDS church leader in the past, and is doctor, on more than one occasion took a cut in income in order to fulfill such positions.

Perhaps I have too much faith in mankind, but I believe that if the only motivation for keeping quiet was money and fame someone along the way would have come out and been honest. You would think somewhere along the way one of them would think "being a prophet doesn't seem any different than not being a prophet."


#9

It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with power.


#10

[quote="truthseeker32, post:1, topic:300300"]
Today as I sat in an LDS sacrament meeting (I no longer consider myself LDS, but a relative asked my wife and I to attend his mission farewell) I began thinking about what is riding on the claims of LDS and Roman Catholic leadership, and a question that has long troubled me: *If the LDS faith is not actually what its leaders claim, why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles and prophets, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

[/quote]

This is an excellent documentary on the claims of the LDS church.

youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw&sns=em

As a member of the LDS church were the issues in the documentary ever addressed in a clear and comprehensive manner?

I believe it was produced by ex-Mormon individuals who had been in positions of some knowledge.

Also, this site mormonthink.com/ is maintained by mostly ex-Mormons who have come to question the nature of the church and its hierarchy. The inner circle of a closed society would enjoy benefits that those outside the circle would not be privy to. Did you ever have a sense that some members in higher positions than you had insider information that was kept from others?

As a former member of the LDS church, did you ever have access to financial records? Did those records match what you would expect from the number of members paying 10% tithes to the local Stake? Was there room to suspect some discrepancy?


#11

:

[quote="truthseeker32, post:1, topic:300300"]
Today as I sat in an LDS sacrament meeting (I no longer consider myself LDS, but a relative asked my wife and I to attend his mission farewell) I began thinking about what is riding on the claims of LDS and Roman Catholic leadership, and a question that has long troubled me: *If the LDS faith is not actually what its leaders claim, why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles and prophets, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

The RCC points to tradition and apostolic succession for legitimacy, but they don't seem to emphasize modern day guidance and revelation, at least in the way that the LDS faith does. On the other hand, the LDS leadership claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. What exactly this means and how it works is undefined, but we can be sure that they claim God speaks to them in some abnormal sense.

I can see how, even IF the Roman Catholic Church is not the True faith, it could have perpetuated while the believers even at the top remain honest and good people. The pope, other clergy, and laypeople simply believe they are part of something good and valid that was revealed 2000 years ago. They don't see themselves as being guided in the same way that Mormons do.

On the other hand, the LDS leaders, both past and present, claim to have modern day revelation guiding the organization. *If they are not actually what they claim to be why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles, have admitted it is fraudulent? *

[/quote]

:popcorn:


#12

[quote="TexanKnight, post:9, topic:300300"]
It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with power.

[/quote]

I'm going to go out on a limb and peg you as a former Mormon with some animosity built up.

Once again your claim falls flat with me. My grandfather is a lot of things, but power hungry is definitely not one of them. Are there some in LDS leadership roles who love the power? Maybe, but it definitely isn't the case for a few I've had the pleasure of meeting.


#13

[quote="truthseeker32, post:8, topic:300300"]
I can buy the idea that some of them convince themselves it is true, but I don't buy the idea that all the men who have held such positions in the LDS church do so for material gain, especially because some forego benefits they would have received outside the church. My grandfather, who has been a high ranking LDS church leader in the past, and is doctor, on more than one occasion took a cut in income in order to fulfill such positions.

Perhaps I have too much faith in mankind, but I believe that if the only motivation for keeping quiet was money and fame someone along the way would have come out and been honest. You would think somewhere along the way one of them would think "being a prophet doesn't seem any different than not being a prophet."

[/quote]

I believe that they are deceived, but that the grace of God can help them to be aware of the deception, if they are open to it.

There are other groups/denominations that the same story could be said of them.

I have no way of knowing if those in power in the LDS church are convinced it is false and stay in it anyway.

I have heard of many members of the LDS Church who have become Catholic.

Blessings for your journey!


#14

Thank you for the links, Peter Plato. I am familiar with both the documentary and Mormonthink. As for your questions...

[quote="Peter_Plato, post:10, topic:300300"]
Did you ever have a sense that some members in higher positions than you had insider information that was kept from others?

[/quote]

When I was still a member I never really thought about it. I guess it was a given that there were obvious things I was unaware of, such as what exactly happens in a temple and what the LDS president does during the day, but I never felt like secrets were intentionally being kept from me. I was fortunate to grow up in a Mormon family that revealed to me some of the less attractive aspects of Mormonism.

As a former member of the LDS church, did you ever have access to financial records? Did those records match what you would expect from the number of members paying 10% tithes to the local Stake? Was there room to suspect some discrepancy?

I am not sure if I could have had access. Is that something that can be found online?


#15

[quote="truthseeker32, post:14, topic:300300"]

I am not sure if I could have had access. Is that something that can be found online?

[/quote]

I mean available to the local congregation as a matter of openness. Most Catholic parishes have a pastoral council with a finance committee that reports the financial state of the parish to the congregation. Is that not routinely done as an aspect of administrative policy in LDS Stake Centres?

Virtually every board or organization that relies on public funds/donations has an implicit moral, if not legal, responsibility to be accountable for its financial affairs. A publicly available financial statement is almost always a requirement for how this responsibility is met.


#16

:thumbsup:


#17

[quote="Peter_Plato, post:15, topic:300300"]
I mean available to the local congregation as a matter of openness. Most Catholic parishes have a pastoral council with a finance committee that reports the financial state of the parish to the congregation. Is that not routinely done as an aspect of administrative policy in LDS Stake Centres?

[/quote]

No, the Mormon church does not publish or disclose their financial state. Not unless it is required by law, such as in the UK.


#18

I live in Utah, and I was raised LDS. There is a huge social pressure to belong. I'm sure it goes all the way up to the top. When I discovered that the church was false, I was tempted to stay because I didn't want to be ostracized. I think it is sort of like the Emperor's New Clothes.


#19

Do you think it's something like this: they define mormon teaching using normal human faculties, but since they are apostles/the president of the church, they assume their decisions were guided by God? Since they've always been taught that those officials were guided by God, they just assume that once they achieve that position, that they will be?

Or maybe it's like in some Protestant denominations where pastors get a feeling that God has "put on their heart" something to say. Whether God really did or not, who knows, but it doesn't strike me as a fool-proof way of knowing God's will.


#20

[quote="AshJade, post:18, topic:300300"]
I live in Utah, and I was raised LDS. There is a huge social pressure to belong. I'm sure it goes all the way up to the top. When I discovered that the church was false, I was tempted to stay because I didn't want to be ostracized. I think it is sort of like the Emperor's New Clothes.

[/quote]

Hello AshJade, re: the Emperor's tale and the subject at hand, I have had the same thought on several occasions. They think they are clothed in the Holy Spirit, and a lot of other people think so too.


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