Why I am not a Catholic - Romans 14:1-4


#1

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)
The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


#2

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)
The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

The Church does not judge you. She lays out the rules to follow. And taking a stand on a disputable matter is a good thing. You must stand for something or you will fall for anything. Those that have weak faith, the Church wants to help. Jesus wants to help. He left a church full of Sacraments that bring you closer to God. Thats the point of all this.

Romans 14:1-4 may be why your not Catholic, but Romans 14:1-4 and the rest of Scripture makes me Catholic.

dxu


#3

Well, the Catholic Church does accept those whose faith is weak - I can personally vouch for that. :thumbsup:


#4

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church follows this direction fully. From our perspective, we have the fullness of faith (eat everything) and other religions many only have the vegetables. The CC believes that people from other Christian denominations and even other religions can reach salvation. The Catechism states (emphasis mine):

819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276


#5

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I think the gospel being preached is not the same as not eating meat so that the weaker brother doesn’t get hurt. Most Catholics I know are aware of the concept of don’t scandalize your brother, even if it is allowable for you.

Also, when the Catholic Church has a special day, like Ash Wednesday fast, a Methodist is specifically *not *bound by it (by the Catholic Church).

I have noticed no propensity amongst Catholics in particular to determine that Uncle Bob is going to hell and to say it. Like most Christians, they use language that idicates a refusal to do just that. I think they are mindful of the words: But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. from Romans 14.


#6

Not only that but a lot of us Catholic’s have relative’s that aren’t Catholic and we know that they have great faith, hope and charity and the love of God and read His word, mediatate on it and act on it. We don’t judge them, we only pray that they come into the fullness of His truth, we can see and witness to the love that the Holy Spirit pours out upon them. (Some of them even pray the Rosary.) Stand for Jesus or you’ll fall for anything.


#7

[quote=snowman10]The Church does not judge you.
[/quote]

I have two words for that: Bologna.

[left]The Bull ‘Decet Romanum’: the Condemnation and Excommunication of Martin Luther, the Heretic, and his Followers, January 1521.[/left]

The Bull “Decet Romanum”

[left][/left]

Preamble

Through the power given him from God, the Roman Pontiff has been appointed to administer spiritual and temporal punishments as each case severally deserves. The purpose of this is the repression of the wicked designs of misguided men, who have been so captivated by the debased impulse of their evil purposes as to forget the fear of the Lord, to set aside with contempt canonical decrees and apostolic commandments, and to dare to formulate new and false dogmas and to introduce the evil of schism into the Church of God—or to support, help and adhere to such schismatics, who make it their business to cleave asunder the seamless robe of our Redeemer and the unity of the orthodox faith. Hence it befits the Pontiff, lest the vessel of Peter appear to sail without pilot or oarsman, to take severe measures against such men and their followers, and by multiplying punitive measures and by other suitable remedies to see to it that these same overbearing men, devoted as they are to purposes of evil, along with their adherents, should not deceive the multitude of the simple by their lies and their deceitful devices, nor drag them along to share their own error and ruination, contaminating them with what amounts to a contagious disease…


#8

[quote=Angainor]I have two words for that: Bologna.
[left]The Bull ‘Decet Romanum’: the Condemnation and Excommunication of Martin Luther, the Heretic, and his Followers, January 1521.
[/quote]

The way I understand it, the use of the keys to the kingdom of heaven does not judge an individual but cuts that individual off before judgement. It is used primarily to teach the faithful not to follow an individual that may lead them astray. If an excommunication is reversed the individual still has to stand judgement.[/left]


#9

[quote=Angainor]I have two words for that: Bologna.

[left]The Bull ‘Decet Romanum’: the Condemnation and Excommunication of Martin Luther, the Heretic, and his Followers, January 1521.[/left]

The Bull “Decet Romanum”

[left][/left]

Preamble

Through the power given him from God, the Roman Pontiff has been appointed to administer spiritual and temporal punishments as each case severally deserves. The purpose of this is the repression of the wicked designs of misguided men, who have been so captivated by the debased impulse of their evil purposes as to forget the fear of the Lord, to set aside with contempt canonical decrees and apostolic commandments, and to dare to formulate new and false dogmas and to introduce the evil of schism into the Church of God—or to support, help and adhere to such schismatics, who make it their business to cleave asunder the seamless robe of our Redeemer and the unity of the orthodox faith. Hence it befits the Pontiff, lest the vessel of Peter appear to sail without pilot or oarsman, to take severe measures against such men and their followers, and by multiplying punitive measures and by other suitable remedies to see to it that these same overbearing men, devoted as they are to purposes of evil, along with their adherents, should not deceive the multitude of the simple by their lies and their deceitful devices, nor drag them along to share their own error and ruination, contaminating them with what amounts to a contagious disease…
[/quote]

That Bull makes sense to me.
Christ founded only one Church and commanded that all would be united through it to Him, and Him to the Father, so that all would be one in the Father.
Very simple.
He gave His Church His authority to teach ‘he who hears you hears Me’
And to correct ’ … sins you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven … sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven’

Martin Luther, by rejecting this ‘Christ given’ authority excommunicated himself, (cut himself off from Christ’s body).
And the fact was then simply formally and publicly declared


#10

Angianor:

Chesterton said that the church is the only institution this world has known that looks out to all directions at all times. It has armies that lie in wait within its walls to fight the future enemies that will come its way.

The church does have the right to say what is morally right and morally wrong. Christ’s charter to Peter to bind and loose. This statement not only provides for the forgiveness of sins but of necessity it has to outline precisely what are sins and what is not in order to forgive.

The church is the only insitution in the world that arbitrates the truth in all fronts: social, political, medical, technical, moral, etc. It does not become dated when it faces a new field of battle. Example: when the internet came about, many puritanical christians said that it was a sign of the devil, no you can’t use the internet…the church on the other hand, recognized this and said go ahead use it as a medium to proclaim the Gospel. On the flipside, when all the other denominations decided contraception was moral, it alone stood the line and said HUMANA VITAE! No, this is contraception is intrinsically evil and will destroy the family. This was done inspite of pressures from within her ranks mind you.

Lastly Chesterton adds that there may me nuggets of truth in other faiths…but the Catholic Church is always A TRUTH TELLING THING. It will keep doing this until the return of her Lord Jesus Christ.

So, in regard to your assessment that the CC is judgemental, of course it judges what is moral. That is what a church that received revelation should do. It is her job. As for charity, we catholics have this old saying: Hate the sin, love the sinner.

You asked who is the CC to judge: Paul says that the church is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. That is who she is.

in XT.


#11

There are disputable matters and there are non-disputable matters. Obviously, one could argue about vegetables vs. meat in the diet, but that is a disputable matter. Such things as abortion and euthanasia are not disputable matters. Artificial forms of contraception were not a disputable matter for the entirety of Christian history until the Anglican communion broke ranks in the 1930’s. Since then, most protestant churches, both large and small, are in favor of artificial contraception while the Catholic Church has stood steadfast against it.

A definition of terms needs to be carefully applied when we talk about disputable and indisputable matters. For the most part, a good Christian, whether Catholic or Protestant, cannot easily be distinguished in behavior by the non-believer or by most Christians. The idea that the Catholic Church regulates every conceivable aspect of life is a highly exagerated view of the Church.


#12

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

You post is a good example of why I could never be a Protestant. You grab 4 verses out of Scripture and use you "personal " interpretation of it to condemn 100s a millions of Catholics who has remained true to the Church over the last 2,000 years. In one fell swope you condemn Augustine,Aquinas, Ignatious, et al as being less informed than you are about Scripture. 2,000 years of traditions and teachings swept aside because it doesnt fit your view of scripture-and only 4 verses at that!

Iit would seem from your post that for 1,500 years God allowed the Church to follow false doctrine-millions and millions who thought they were following Christ condmend to eternal hellfire until the Protestants came along to staighten them out. Under the doctine you assert is is obvious that Guttenberg must be co-redeemer with Christ and that literacy is as important as Faith to obtain salvation.

All that would seem, on the face of it, to be a bit arrogant, wouldnt you think?


#13

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

Then if this is the reason you are not Catholic, I would expect to be welcoming you home very soon I would think. :wink:


#14

Plus we disagree on which things are disputable and which are indisputable. The very passage cited confirms Catholic teachings. There are monks who refuse to eat meat and there are those who do. The issue is disputable therefore that Church does not pass judgement on such matters. But what would the protestant say to those who denied the full divinity of Christ? For us, Christs full divinity is indisputable.


#15

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)
[/quote]

The context of this is that Jewish converts were a little hesitant to eat meats that had formerly been “unclean” to them. For centuries their relatives were forbidden from eating these meats. All of their lives, they had been told that these meats were unclean and should be avoided.

Suddenly, these meats were no longer unclean, and they were allowed to eat them. It is very understandable that they would be a little hesitant to eat those foods. Their faith (the Christian faith) told them these meats were now clean, but some were still hesitant to eat them.

That is what Paul was addressing. What he was saying was that those who had a strong faith and had no problem eating the formerly unclean meat, should not judge those who were hesitant to eat them. After all, no one is required to eat those meats to be a Christian. It was an indifferent matter. And when something is indifferent, people should not argue about it and isolate others.

But there is a big difference between an indifferent thing, such as eating certain foods, and rejecting doctrines, which is what Luther did. The Bible makes a clear distinction. The quote you provided shows that when we are dealing with such secondary and indifferent matters as what food we eat, we should not judge another.

However, when we are dealing with doctrine the Bible is clear that if someone teaches a false doctrine they are to be avoided. And the only way to know if their doctrine is false is to “judge”.

“A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he that is such a one is subverted and sinnieth, being condemned by his own judgment” (Titus 3:10-11)

Luther was one such heretic. He rejected what was taught by Christ and His apostles, and invented a false form of Chritianity to justify his guilty conscience. “I burn " said Luther " with a thousand flames in my unsubdued flesh: I feel myself carried on with a rage towards women that approached madness. I, who ought to be fervent in spirit, am only fervent in impurity” (Table Talk).

Luther, in order to justify his conscience, revolted and did not continue in the doctrine of Christ. “Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God… If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works” (2 John 1:9-11).

continue…


#16

continuation

Luther began to dispute with others about doctrinal matters. The matter was brought before the Church. The Church did its job by settling the matter, and Luther’s errors were condemned. Luther refused to hear the Church and was excommunicated, as he deserved to be. “If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” (Mt 18:17)

Unless he repented before he died (and we have no reason to beleive he did), he is in hell at this very moment. And those who follow his erroneous teachings will join him there for all eternity.

Thankfully the Church did its job by condemning him early on so those who wanted to know the truth, could.

The Church did its job; but unfortunately there are still those who, like Luther, refuse to “hear the Church”. Their end will be the same as his.

“I find myself here” proclaimed Luther on the day of his ex-communication, “insensate and hardened, established in idleness. Oh, woe! Praying little, and ceasing to moan for the Church of God, because my untamed flesh burns in great flames. In short, I, who should have the fervor of the spirit, have the fervor of the flesh, of licentiousness, sloth, idleness, and somnolence”. (Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken, II, p.22)

“I confess, and many others could undoubtedly make an equal confession” declared Luther " that I am now more negligent than I was under the Pope: and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was formerly seen among monks and priests". (Walch,XI.1311)

“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther" and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases".(Walch ed.)

“The Gospel today” said Luther, referring to his “gospel”, " finds adherents who are convinced that it is nothing but a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses". (M. Luther, Werke, XXXII, p. 2)

Finally we will end with the prophecy of Luther which seems as though spoke by Isaias Himself:

"There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi: hence the greatest scandals… “If God had not closed my eyes and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to preach the Gospel” (Martin Luther).

Behold the words of “The Great Reformer”.


#17

[quote=Angainor]Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:1-4 (NIV)

The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

Ironically, you are doing exactly what you accuse the Catholic Church of doing!

And, by the way, it is not true that “Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view.” That situation exists only in your imagination.


#18

It seems to me a simple matter:
Christ foresaw division so He established a Church to proclaim His truth.
The truth is already there, we don’t have to search any farther than the Catholic Church. If a person disagrees with any of Her stances, well that’s very much a problem of the person and not the Church who is being claimed to “judge” people. It’s definitely not judging, it’s taking a stance on what is true.
Besides, everyone wants to be free.
As Jesus said, "The truth will set you free."
And He’s right.
When He said that, He wasn’t limiting it to "Once you realize I am your Lord and Savior, you will be free."
It means that and SO much more. The truth - what does it mean to you today?


#19

[quote=USMC]The context of this is that Jewish converts were a little hesitant to eat meats that had formerly been “unclean” to them. For centuries their relatives were forbidden from eating these meats. All of their lives, they had been told that these meats were unclean and should be avoided.

Suddenly, these meats were no longer unclean, and they were allowed to eat them. It is very understandable that they would be a little hesitant to eat those foods. Their faith (the Christian faith) told them these meats were now clean, but some were still hesitant to eat them.

That is what Paul was addressing. What he was saying was that those who had a strong faith and had no problem eating the formerly unclean meat, should not judge those who were hesitant to eat them. After all, no one is required to eat those meats to be a Christian. It was an indifferent matter. And when something is indifferent, people should not argue about it and isolate others.

[/quote]

I take my :tiphat: off to you for posting this, and it’s seems like the reason for not being a Catholic is based on self-interpretation, like the start of this thread.
And this is an example of relying on self without the guidance of the Church.
The Bible and the Church go hand in hand, if it’s Bible only, then we are like a bird trying to fly on one wing.


#20

[quote=Angainor]The very nature of Catholicism is an affront to this principle. Catholicism takes a stand on very nearly every “disputable matter” imaginable and requires conformity of all Christians to its view. Who is Catholicism to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[/quote]

And who are you to judge Catholics? From where do you get your authority?

IOW, “I’m not Catholic because I’d rather establish my own standards to which to be held accountable. That way, I can rationalize those things which I do that are wrong but that I’d really rather keep on doing.”

– Mark L. Chance.


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