Why I'm leery of charismaticism

I received this brochure in the mail a few days ago:

chicagorenewal.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/D-Stayne-web-broch-rv-lores.pdf

Other than the brief mention of Mass and Adoration and that single image of the Eucharist, doesn’t this look exactly like one of those horrible TBN televangelists or a Benny Hinn “revival”?

Especially disturbing to me is this self-titled “Miracle Healing Service”. If someone is healed, ok - if there is a miracle, again ok. But these are spontaneous gifts from the Holy Spirit, not one that can be scheduled by man… am I wrong?

Here’s a link from one of the leaders of charismaticism:

facebook.com/beatitudini.erice

What rite are these folks? Why is the priest wearing his stole kind-of-sort-of-not-really like a deacon of the Chaldean Church… what else is going on in their photos?

All very … :shrug:

I don’t think so. While I understand there is a Catholic charismatic movement, and I am sure many of the posters here have had positive experiences with it (and one cannot argue against subjective experiences), I can’t say I find the idea either apostolic or Scriptural…at least as it pertains to certain of the so-called charismatic gifts.

Here’s a youtube video on the subject, narrated by a Catholic priest. Most of the video explains the problems with the Charismatic movement.

youtube.com/watch?v=EmOd7MCwUSM

It seems to be a flier to me and therefore difficult to say with certainty what actually going on there, or the content of their teaching and services.

It seems to be a school where they teach you about the charismatic gifts. Mass is also available which means they do have a priest or priests to say them. They also hold healing service.

That in themselves are perfectly valid though to name the school as teaching charism and the healing service as miracle healing service, on the surface I would say a bit presumptuous. It is true that one can explain the charism but it is the Lord who gives them as He will. As for the healing service, of course the healing, if experienced, is from God and therefore a miracle.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a valid spirituality, recognized by the last few popes since Paul VI. There is no doubt about that. Perhaps it is good to see for ourselves what they are doing before making any judgment. As far as the titles of the flier are concerned, they are more for eye-catching effect but more importantly what they actually teach and do there.

It is good to enquire whether they have any spiritual director from the clergy, maybe to act as imprimatur.

Marketing is marketing, I guess. However, this hype-style marketing is disturbing to me, as someone of faith.

Especially if the leadership plays fast and loose with the Liturgy and Tradition - which the one’s I’ve had experience with, do. I haven’t yet seen a charismatic leader that respects the practices that are organically handed down - other than a peripheral mention or lip service - whether its Sacred Tradition or of the spirit of the Sacred Tradition.

I’ve never once seen a “charismatic” put up a Traditional image labelled “Miracle Healing Divine Liturgy”:

photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/6535/945/1600/414130/Qurbana2.jpg

1.bp.blogspot.com/-b6pQAMSk_j0/ThFQNdXh0GI/AAAAAAAAAMo/Tgs4wzkJKFU/s1600/holy+qurbana.jpg

It’s always, always, always, some kind of band/music/clappy thing they label “praise and worship” and then some-lay preacher speaking and “laying hands” like a bishop.

Unfortunately, my real computer is dead. And my current temporary one refuses to open the link.:mad:.

Normally, when there are questions about a “charismatic” group, my suggestion is to contact the Diocesan Ofiice for verification that the “charismatic” group is in good standing with the Bishop. You may be referred to the liaison for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal or to the office of the Vicar for Spirituality. Or if there is a recognized Catholic Charismatic Renewal group nearby, you could check with the Pastor of the Church. However, while Pastors give permission for a Catholic Charismatic Renewal prayer group in their parish, they may not have detailed information about events happening somewhere in the Diocese.

Even when safeguards are in place, it is possible for a wolf in sheep’s clothing to slip in. This is why all Catholics need to recognize the chaff from the wheat. It is proper to ask questions.

What is disturbing to me is people making rash judgments about things they are not familiar with. The Holy Spirit gives his charisms and gifts as he wills, but that does not mean you cannot pray and ask for healing, miracles, etc. in a healing service. After all, on this forum we have a folder just for prayer requests. Would you consider those illegitimate requests or scheduled by man? Jesus said we are to ask the Father for what we need. If we need a miracle healing, we ask for it. That does not mean we will always get what we want, because we always pray for the will of God, but it is proper to ask for them. And it does not mean it can’t be done at a service intended to ask God for healing. The priests do not do the healing, God does.

The Charismatic Renewal is here to stay and has the blessing of the Church. Therefore, it’s legitimacy is not in question. Pope Francis himself met with many of them last June and praised them for their work in the Church. Here is a link to his speech:

catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=55674

Now of course this is not an infallible statement, and people may disagree, but if you disagree with the Church and the Pope there should be an understanding of what you disagree with, and an examination of one’s conscience to see if one truly understands the issue, and is not just reacting because it’s strange, or new, or one does not like it.

As for teaching about it–yes, teaching is necessary so that people don’t run amok doing their own thing and misinterpreting the Bible–that was something St. Paul warned about. He did not like disorder and improper use of the gifts. So there better be teaching, and the page you referenced was under the auspices of a diocese whose responsibility it is to see the movement is within the boundaries of Catholic Christianity. Most dioceses have a liaison with the Charismatic Renewal.

Remember, the Catholic Church does not mainly consist of our American experience of it. There are many various legitimate movements and forms of worship around the world. We are not a cookie-cutter Church. We have unity, but within that unity is legitimate diversity.

What it looks like is what it says it is: a school about the charismatic gifts. Fr. Mike Scanlan gives his endorsement and I trust his judgment. The other leaders that are quoted describe something I would love to participate in.

I don’t know what you mean by “scheduled by man.” It appears that main speaker has the gift of healing. I don’t know what is “scheduled?” Maybe rephrase that?

Great advice. I am involved in a Catholic charismatic group at my parish which is headed by my Pastor who heads the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for our diocese. I can attest that this is authentic, but your advice concerning the wolf in sheep’s clothing is sound. There are a lot of groups out there and one needs to be very cautious. Speaking in tongues is a gift, but one of the least of the gifts and has little or nothing to due with one’s salvation. When a group begins to place undue focus on this it is time to give it a second look.

Why isn’t it called “Prayers requesting Miraculous Healing” as opposed to “Miracle Healing Service”… the implication is purposefully vague/different.

The Charismatic Renewal is here to stay and has the blessing of the Church. Therefore, it’s legitimacy is not in question.

It’s not the Renewal itself that I’m questioning, just certain leaders and their practices. The Renewal can be an opportunity for real good, and also a possibility of schism - just like Traditional focused gatherings can be opportunity for renewal or schism.

Pope Francis himself met with many of them last June and praised them for their work in the Church. Here is a link to his speech:

catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=55674

Now of course this is not an infallible statement, and people may disagree, but if you disagree with the Church and the Pope there should be an understanding of what you disagree with, and an examination of one’s conscience to see if one truly understands the issue, and is not just reacting because it’s strange, or new, or one does not like it.

That’s a general recognition, not about individual ministries or leaders.

As for teaching about it–yes, teaching is necessary so that people don’t run amok doing their own thing and misinterpreting the Bible–that was something St. Paul warned about. He did not like disorder and improper use of the gifts. So there better be teaching, and the page you referenced was under the auspices of a diocese whose responsibility it is to see the movement is within the boundaries of Catholic Christianity. Most dioceses have a liaison with the Charismatic Renewal.

Remember, the Catholic Church does not mainly consist of our American experience of it. There are many various legitimate movements and forms of worship around the world. We are not a cookie-cutter Church. We have unity, but within that unity is legitimate diversity.

How do you explain or respond to the wide-spread liturgical abuses that many, if not most charismatic gatherings tolerate or even promote? How can one be so Spirit filled and charism focused, and at the same time so Liturgically lax and disordered?

Of what abuses are you speaking that “many, if not most charismatic gatherings tolerate or even promote”?

I do not know.whether.that specific charismatic group you mention is genuine or not,

But of the charismatic renewal in general:
The charismatic renewal is accepted by our Popes.
The international charismatic renewal have a mass with the Pope EACH year. They even pray in tongues aloud.while the Pope is in the church. One of the Pope’s responded to their praying in tongues with the words of acceptance; “This is the church.” that the charisms are part of the Church.

However cautions have been given; charisms are to be submitted to a priest for discernment, and the Holy Spirit will NEVER lead someone to leave the catholic church or contradict catholic doctrine.

What kind of charisms? Same as the early apostles and the miracles God worked through saints like Padre Pio, John Vianney, St Anthony, John Bosco…

Not everyone receives an extraordinary charism
Generosity is a gift that’s less extraordinary but just as important.

Over in Ireland there are many evangelists God has given these gifts to; Sr Briege McKenna being one. Eddie Stones being another (under approval of his bishop). And I know of 6 genuine others who are involved in the healing, deliverance, and family tree ministry and are asked by priests to give talks at parishes all over the country. Some of them are living off divine providence. And there are great miracles for those God wants to give miracles to.

The charismatic renewal is under the current Popes John Paul, Benedict and Francis approval. Before the Vatican II the Pope asked the faithful to pray for a new Pentecost and the charismatic renewal was God’s answer.

Is this unusual?
The early christians following Pentecost exercised tongues and cast out demons.

Padre Pio exercised such gifts

Having said that, Discernment is always necessary

I

there are false wolves posing as shepherds in the world yes, your discernment is necessary

the charismatic renewal is approved by the.church
Catechism says the charisms of the Holy Spirit are for building up the church and we need them.

See evidence of tongues in the lives of the saints;
miraclesofthesaints.com/2…-gift.html?m=1

Read about Linda Schubert, a catholic with a ministry on promoting and teaching people how to use tongues, she worked with Fr Robert de Grandis for a long while (who was instrumental in progressing the Charismatic Renewal, and himself wrote a book on tongues)

lindaschubert.org/shop/the-gi…y-to-miracles/

Also:
Ewtn founder Mother Angelica was prayed over by Fr Robert de Grandis (mentioned) and developed the gift of tongues. Tongues is an APPROVED charism of the Catholic Church.*

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmes…=&Pgnu=&recnu=

mostholyfamilymonastery.c…on_network.pdf

Here is the link to the book*A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church. There are chapters explaining the various gifts of the Holy Spirit.

brendancase.com/uploads/Key_t…ic_Renewal.pdf

St Paul wrote in the bible; ‘I wish you all spoke in tongues.’ ‘desire the spiritual gifts.’ ‘Lay not aside prophecy, and do not forbid the one who prophecies, for he who prophecies builds up the church, and he who prays in tongues edifices himself.’

See this link for quotes from the Catechism on the charisms of the Holy Spirit,
And a description of how the charisms can work
diolaf.org/index.cfm?load=page&page=733

maineholyspirit.org/charisms.html

The catechism does say that the little charisms are as important as the extraordinary ones, patience or generosity is as important as miracles/ tongues/ prophecy.
And as St Paul said in the bible after he spoke about desiring spiritual gifts, tongues, prophecy, etc… that love was the most important of everything,*
Jesus even said there would be people who misused spiritual gifts that at their judgement would not be saved and would say, ‘Lord did we not heal the sick and cast out demons in your Name?’
‘As St Paul wrote: If I have not love I am but a sound.’

Jesus also said in the Bible: ‘These are the signs that shall accompany believers. They shall speak in tongues, the shall prophecy, they shall lay their hands on the sick and they shall get better.’
‘They shall do greater works than I because I go to my Father.’

Most Holy Family Monastery is a sedevacantist organization run by Michael Dimond. Due to its publication of a pamphlet entitled “101 Heresies of Anti-Pope John Paul II” it was declared “a dissident organization that challenges the papal authority” by The Catholic League in January, 1999. The group has also been condemned by the Catholic diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, and was designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Yeah, probably not the nest source.

I was glad to see this book recommended. The beginning has a brief history. Check the Chapter headings.

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
ISBN: 0-87029-033-9

Link to book
brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf

Disregard that.website.then, (I was not.aware.of that at all)
I was only giving url sites.that explained.the.charismatic renewal

My point was
The.charismatic renewal is approved by the Popes and generally is genuine

Discernment is necessary,
And yes people.can pretend to have gifts, or misuse them, or.start off genuine and then leave the church,
Submitting everything in Obedience to the church and a.spiritual director is the only proof of some authenticity

I just checked on their website. Nothing much there but they are CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC RENEWAL CENTER FOR CHICAGO. I am not from that area but anyone can check it out. Seems legit to me. They conduct Life in the Spirit Seminar and hold healing service regularly.

The flier in question looks like one of the programs they are presently running. It teaches about the charismatic gifts. Probably it is a kind of seminar or a workshop and in between, it includes mass and healing service.

Looking at the endorsement by some respected key figures of the Renewal like Father Scanlan, the program has good recommendation.

If you are in doubt, you can checked with the Archdiocese of Chicago and inquire from their archbishop. That should clarify matter.

I am sure it they are Roman Catholic, Latin Rite.

Why not? It entails in praying for healing definitely. They have regular healing prayer every Sunday.

At one glance, I agree with you, the title “Miracle Healing Service” seems to be rather arrogant. Usually just “Healing Service” would be sufficient. I think they want it to be more descriptive and the target could be more those who are unfamiliar with such service. Of course the healing is miraculous. It is the Lord who heals, not the priests or their leaders.

Based on the brochure alone, you would be quite rash in making that conclusion as you do not know for sure who and what they are.

The Renewal has been around for about forty five years, if one counts the Duquesne University, Pennsylvania, experience, where a group of students first witnessed a life changing experience with the Lord that started the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church.

Yes, it is true especially in the initial decades that inexperienced leaders were unable to deal sufficiently with the outburst of changes in their lives. Some had differences with the church especially the clergies; there was so much misunderstanding, both sides could not really figure out what was going on and thus mishandled the situation.

But you may be relieved that now things are quite stabilized. Charismatic spirituality, essentially being a renewal of the Catholic faith and practices, has resulted in them perhaps to become some of the most energetic and faithful Catholics. No worry. It is no wonder that the all the popes since then, have endorsed and supported the Renewal. You can listen to what they say about the Renewal, the latest being the present pope, Pope Francis.:slight_smile:

As for possibility of schism, virtually every church movement has that potential. It is probably the safest with the Renewal as they have entrenched themselves into mainline church life. Most people usually look negatively at the charismatic gifts being associated with them but that is a fallacy. The gifts, though desired, are mainly talents to up-build the Church, so that they are equipped to serve. Most of the talents are natural rather than charismatic. Anyway it is a good step that they are being taught (as to what they are) in that school to avoid misconception.

God bless.

charismaticsandiego.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=25899348

I bet the one pictures was nothing live this one:
straphael.org/~office_of_worship/Procession.pdf
REQUISITES FOR THE EUCHARISTIC PROCESSION
The following are needed for a Eucharistic Procession:
• The monstrance with a consecrated host
• A canopy to hold over the Blessed Sacrament (optional)
• Processional Candles (four or six)
• Thurible and incense (if the parish is able, two thuribles may be used)
• Vestments—the priest may wear the vestments worn during Mass (white stole
and chasuble) or he may wear a white stole and cope
• Humeral veil
• Hymnals or other participation aids (optional)
• Candles (tapers) for the faithful

What is the world is going on here:
charismaticsandiego.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=88069802

Another example - the Mother of God Community around the DC-area (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_God_Community). They were reorganized under episcopal leadership to conform to more Catholic norms. Many left and formed a new group, calling itself Triumph of the Cross Community - tcc-us.org/about_us … this spinoff group doesn’t publicly mention Catholicism at all. They may be perfectly kosher, but why are there such examples? Some seem like they prefer the charismatic experience and style over being as close to the heart of the Church as possible. Of course there are such groups among Traditionalists - SSPX, Bp. Williamson, etc.

A better spiritual outcome may be possible for the SSPX-type, when comparing the two, however, as SSPX-type separation from the Church still retains the organic praxis and doctrines of the Church. When someone attached to charismatism has beef with the Church though, the only place to keep their attachment is to go outside the sacramental and away from the priesthood.

natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/1997b/041897/041897c.htm

Not only these concerns, even the charismatic communities in Steubenville had/have disturbing events:
scribd.com/doc/103839744/Strife-at-Steubenville-Cracks-In-The-House-Scanlan-Built-NCR-Feb-2000#scribd

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.