But, Nogames, that’s your interpretation, isn’t it? Someone who believes differently could provide their own interpretation, at which point what do you do? How do you know baptism is something we are allowed to hold varying opinions on? And how do those differences jive with the admonition for unity we see throughout the New Testament. If God cannot contradict Himself and is, by definition, free from all error, how can the Scripture he gives us have so much room for differing opinion?
If Sola Scriptura truly was all we needed, it’s amazing how fast the Reformers split amongst themselves, preaching the same Sola Scriptura. They even had to contend with “Radical Reformers” (Anabaptists) who basically split off from them to boot! Even went to war with them.
I’m saying that we can’t (in this life) have absolute certainty of knowledge on anything. But God holds us totally responsible for knowing His word. That doesn’t mean that we have to memorize the whole bible, but He will hold us accountable for what we know, what we believe, and how we live.
To put it another way, I’m saying that according to Romans chapter one, (for example) no one can use the excuse, “but you never gave me sufficient proof that you exist!” God will send all atheists to hell because what CAN be known (even without absolute certainty) is the standard. He doesn’t hold us to a standard that no one could possibly meet. There is reason and there is faith. We need God’s help with both, and the two (faith and reason) are very compatible.
That would be the Calvinist position. In all seriousness. “For Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated” is the usual proof-text that gets tossed around.
So basically we have God’s inerrant word, but we can’t know for sure what it says. And there are some essential teachings and some non-essential teachings, but we can’t know what those are. You’re interpretation of a verse is different than someone else’s, but there’s no hard rule to discern who’s right and who isn’t.
I don’t want to get side-tracked by going into the topic of predestination. For now, I’ll just point out that God could, if it pleased Him, save every single person that ever exists. Since He doesn’t do that, we naturally would want to know WHY God will not save everyone. There are millions of people that will “answer” this question by shouting, “free will” as though that explains it. But notice that this “answer” fails as an answer because it assumes what needs to be proven: in what sense is the fallen man free? If we are equally free to accept or reject Christ, then what is it specifically that makes some people use their “free” will to choose wisely, while so many others don’t? Are some people just more righteous compared to others? Or are some people just more “free” than others? What is the reason for the disparity?
Predestination seems logically true for an eternal being. What’s silly is trying to figure it out. Or writing a 1000 page Systematic Theology on it. Just like the Trinity. Man needs to know his limits. Especially theologians and philosophers.
By God’s grace we can know what we need to know to be saved, but we can’t “know” (in this life) with the same certainty that God has. What this means in practice, is that it always comes down to faith. I know that this (God’s way of salvation) is not going to be accepted here, where infallible knowledge and complete certitude are the key selling points of the Catholic system, but I believe that God provides His people with ALL that they need to be saved, and it will always come down to a matter of faith, and not provable factual reasoning.
Well said, straykat!
I think we’ve both established we can’t know a whole lot with great certainty. The issue that you ask why Cathllolicms is “better” and most of us have examined the evidence available to us and determined that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. We don’t have certainty and we aren’t asking for it. I have plenty of reasons why I think Catholicism is true and I can give you the historical documents and teachings to make that case. However, I haven’t seen you provide much evidence for me to believe you. It seems your beliefs hinge on a lot of personal opinion and subjective evidence. For instance, I don’t find it reasonable to claim some things within Scripture are non-essential without providing a set of teachings Scripture says are essential. If that’s the kind of “reason” we have to be Christians than I’d have no part of it. Catholicism can provide reasonable evidence to substantiate itself, not certainty. A lot of us have determined that evidence superior to anything any other denomination provides.
I’ll bow out of the conversation now, but it’s been nice conversing with you Nogames, and I appreciate your civility and devotion to Christ. While we may disagree I hope I was as charitable as yourself, and please forgive me if I wasn’t!
You’ve been a class act in every post. It has been a pleasure discussing these things with you!
[quote=“nogames, post:256, topic:480198, full:true”]
Luck…no it is not luck, it is with an open heart.
And this atheist provides an example…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfFmCCyyLoo
It is not by luck…he was the only one, among a busload…who converted. I hope you do spend the time to watch it.
I love being Catholic.
I wonder, why do all these scientifically validated miracles in this Church only happen in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches? Why do all these Eucharistic miracles always have the same blood type (AB)? Is someone simply trying to tell me something?
yes to them the “rules” were all that mattered not loving God and loving you neighbor.
The Methodists have been ordaining women since the time of Wesley. It’s not forbidden by their church.
So I guess the Methodists are suspect?
What denomination are you, exactly?
My church is Southern Baptist. But I can’t say that I am SB in all of my theology.
Thank you for revealing your church. There was a poster who would not reveaI his church even after hundred of posts. It helps in a discussion to know where you come from, especially when we disagree on an issue, rather than just for the sake of disagreeing, or being a troll or hating.
I agree with you.
What you are ultimately missing, is the Eucharist!!! Jesus did not leave us alone!!!(HALLELUJAH, HALLELUJAH!!) He left us his body (the church) to carry us through the desert, and the Eucharist (his body) To sustain us! That my dear friend is the difference. He never expected to leave us, and from the apostles onward, we never expected him to leave!!! Amen Amen!