I smell the Worldwide Church of God cult creeping in…
You mean the saints? Ya, that’s biblical:
Not sure what you mean by this
You mean the mitre? You do realize its just a piece of clothing that has progressed throughout the ages yes?
Again, what are you talking about?
You claim that the new Covenant was for only Israel. Jesus said to baptize everyone of all nations
8 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Thomas, you as a non-Catholic or Protestant, and admittedly saying that you have done much research, respectfully, more is needed. I’ll mention a couple: there is a huge misconception about Catholics prayer to statues and icons. Yes, there are many in Catholic churches, but do you know what intercessory prayer is? Although one might sit in front of the statue of Mary, that person is asking Mary to be an intercessor to the Father regarding her prayer request, just like I would ask you to pray for me.
Anti-Semitism: not true. Did you know that a few years ago, Catholic composers that used the word Yahweh (a word never to muttered in a Jewish Temple), in their songs, in respect for the Jewish people, had to rewrite them and omit that word? During our Good Friday Liturgies, did you know that we pray for the Jewish people as the first to hear the Word of God?
Did your resources explain to what the meaning of the Immaculate Conception is? So misunderstood, like praying to statues. Please, without the use of the internet, explain the Immaculate Conception. I would like to know your answer. I’ll leave it at that for now.
As a believer, as you say, there are some misunderstandings. I mean no disrespect.
We become a part of Israel when we believe in Jesus as the Messiah (Romans 11:17). Jesus came for all people, and when we accept Him we become a part of his family - Israel. Think of a parent adopting a child, the child becomes a part of that family & obeys the commands of that particular household.
3 days & 3 nights - Friday evening - Sunday morning is Biblicially impossible according the Jesus and Mark & Luke
Everything else you gave was a “catholic” source. Give Scripture as your proof, not the doctrines created/stated by “Catholic Church fathers” or other men/women.
You can trace symbols back to paganism, and the hat is related to the pagan deity Dagon.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. The Bible was written by Jewish authors from an ancient Eastern Hebraic (Jewish) perspective.
Much of Christianity reads it from a modern western English perspective with a Greek mindset.
I was a former Protestant that left Protestantism to follow Jesus, the Jewish Rabbi, when biblical things seemed to be a contradiction until I studied it from the Jewish perspective.
I wish we could sit down and talk too, I love talking with other believers about our faith.
I would submit that Jesus could not have established a new religion or changed any of what God gave at Sinai. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30), Jesus doesn’t change (Hebrews 13:6-8), He is the Word (John 1:1) and the Word doesn’t change (Isaiah 40:8). If Jesus had changed any of what God gave or instructed ohers in new ways he would be a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13
I saw this post and I wanted to let it go. Yes, there were many claiming to be Popes at those period in time but we officially still recognize one official Pope. And for the record, not two or three Popes but one that is recognized as the valid Pope and thus recorded as such. If one looks into history, sure there were turbulent times and there were infigthings, which was to be expected except that the Gate of Hell will not prevail, and that the Church had one Pope at a time.
You are free to disagree. I am not perturbed about that because we can see this differently.
Me too, but it got the better of me. I’m movin’ on.
Jesus came and said “I am the Bread of Life” and “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Where did you get that St. Paul taught that everyone was supposed to keep Torah? He did not. If so, why was he so adamant about protecting converts from those who told them they had to be circumcised: “As for me, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case, the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. Would that those who are upsetting you might also castrate themselves.” Gal 5:11-12
“We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin?* Of course not! But if I am building up again those things that I tore down, then I show myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law,* that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” Gal 2:15-21.
C.S. Lewis put it very well:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
–C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
You know nothing whatsoever about what Jesus of Nazareth taught, save what was handed down by those convinced He was God. You can believe He was what they preached He was or you can believe you have no idea what he taught. Don’t presume to pick and choose what parts of the witness of the Apostles was “really” what he said and what was not. There is no independent record that would allow that.
Hi PetraG, are you praising God or are you praising the church? My main issue with the Catholic Church is what I call, “The worship of a religion”. The church is loved by God, but a vast number of regular church attendees are lost souls. Narrow is the path that leads to salvation, and very few find it.
The point I’m making here is this: God has frequently used very horrible sinners (like Judas) to accomplish His purposes. The church, as it exists here on earth today isn’t worthy of our praise. All of us are horribly sinful individuals who deserve to be thrown into hell for all eternity.
So whenever I hear people praising the Catholic Church (for example by asserting that the CC gave us the bible) I get irritated. It is God who should be praised for giving us His life-giving word. We can all agree that His church was given a role in the writing and preservation of the bible, but as Scripture declares, “even our best works are (in God’s sight) as filthy rags.” If Jesus is THE WAY, then we should be praising and thanking Him; not a religious institution.
I’m not praising the Church. I’m saying that it is nonsensical to imagine that anyone knows what Jesus taught or did, save from the written accounts that have survived. They say Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnate Son of God, not a rabbi who was fighting an intellectual sect within Judaism. (By the way, if you knew anything about the Pharisees of that time, you’d know what they were teaching was far closer to what Jesus taught than what the other rabbinic schools were teaching.)
If the Bible did not come via the Catholic Church, where did it come from? God didn’t send any signed first editions straight from the Heavenly Publishing House. God chose to use the people who were the bishops and teachers in the early Church.
The Bible is very clear that teaching authority was placed in the persons of the bishops, who were promised the Holy Spirit would be there to guide them. If you do not like that flimsy set-up, contact the Complaint Department.
As for Judas, this is what Our Lord had to say:
When it was evening, he came with the Twelve. And as they reclined at table and were eating, Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” They began to be distressed and to say to him, one by one, “Surely it is not I?” He said to them, “One of the Twelve, the one who dips with me into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” (Mark 14:17-21)
That is not what he said to Peter after the Resurrection. He told him to feed his lambs and to feed his sheep. He gave him the role of shepherd.
Thanks for your reply. As I’ve already said, this emphasis on WHICH CHURCH (as if there were more than one) is the “correct” one, is just church (or religion) worship and not worthwhile at all. The Muslims worship their religion too, but how is that a good thing?
What if you are right? Are you going to argue that “being right” about your religion makes you saved? How did that work out for the Pharisees? Facts (the truth) is infinitely better than our own individual speculations on which religious institutions are closest to God’s prescribed form, and my priority is to let God’s word be my ultimate and final authority. To God be all glory, honor, and worship!
The Muslims DO NOT worship their religion. That is simply unjust. Say what you want about them, but their whole day revolves around recognition of the supremacy of the God of Abraham.
I have been talking only about objective facts concerning the person of Jesus and why I believe them. I don’t remember writing a single word about my personal likelihood of reaching the Beatific Vision, although one would generally think that if only for the sake of the truth that having objective facts straight is better than to be in error. You are the one who seems to think he has the inside information to pronounce that “a vast number of regular church attendees are lost souls,” not me.
I’m only saying that if you want God’s word to be your final authority and you believe the Bible to be that word, then the plain meaning of that word is that the Church was intended to remain his one Body, that towards that end she was placed under the sure guardianship of the Holy Spirit that she might be unified in thought and love until the Lord returns, that it was inevitable that some would come along incorrectly preaching the Gospel in ways not handed on by the Apostles, since that happened from the very beginning, but that the Church can be trusted to have the truth even if she is also certain to be lead by human beings who make mistakes in their own personal behavior.
Someone asked why I’m Catholic. I think that is a straightforward reading of what the New Testament says. If you read it some other way, that is fine, but please do not sink to judging others as less ardent in their love of God than you are because they believe a long-standing and sensible interpretation of the very Book you are using as your authority as the basis for your condemnation.
I see you got a few (too many) replies to your post proving exactly what I was stating
Do you mean proof that you decided ahead of time that it is impossible to have proof? If you deny that you have decided that it is impossible to know the truth, describe what evidence would satisfy you.
Since you are posting to someone (nogames) who does believe that it necessary to submit to the word of God, show where the word of God says that God gave authority to interpret that word not to people who have the office of teaching but instead to private interpretation. Otherwise, give some evidence that there is no problem with having several schools of thought within Christianity that all disagree with each other. Give some evidence from the Bible that it was the practice of the early Church to accept many different interpretations of the faith.
My opinion is that you won’t find anything like that in the Bible. If you don’t like the idea of an objective truth and a single teaching that complies with the teaching of the Apostles, I think the plain meaning of the New Testament is that the Bible is not the guidebook for you and the Christianity that followed on the heels of Pentecost is not the religion for you.
nogames, please carry on with your debate with PetraG as long as you want, but stating that you get “irritated” from what people say about the Catholic church in the above quote, has me, as I am sure others as well, irritated as well. So, you really the think the main issue with the CC is that they worship their religion? Ridiculous! As a Catholic within ministry of the church for many years, I have never heard anyone speak the church in this off-the-wall way. Never. No church is worthy of praise, only God is. And, my friend, that is what Catholics do: They praise God at Mass and not the Church. We pray for the church, yes, just as we do for the world and our brothers and sisters.
Who do you talk to? Where do you hear such nonsense?
I actually posted to @rondirect whom I got the feeling is Catholic from his/her post?
Other than that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or attempting to get at.
If you would, explain what you meant by
Hi rondirect, I’d be happy to explain what I mean. This forum is, as you have seen, is the “home” of a lot of wonderful people of different points of view. Many of my best friends are Catholic too, so I hope that you will take my words seriously.
Attitudes can be hard to discern in a totally written forum where we can’t see the faces or hear the voices of the people we are communicating with. So naturally, we can only discern attitudes by the words we are using with each other. If you read through this whole topic from the beginning, what you will find is lots of Catholics who are very confident that only the CC is the one established by God, and that only the CC has complete unity (one-ness). In addition, you will find the usual Catholic talking points, such as:
- The fact that the apostle Peter was named, “rock” by Jesus, the keys to the kingdom were given to Peter only, and these facts, among a few others, is how we can know that there is apostolic succession in the CC alone.
- The teachings of the CC are infallible because only the CC has this infallible authority given to it by Jesus.
- The others (non-Catholics) don’t have the “real presence” in the Lord’s Supper; only Catholics have it.
- History is clear on the authority of the Catholic Church, so there is no historical reason to doubt this.
I could add several other talking points, but you get my point.
Those of us who have rejected Rome’s authority are often reminded (here) that our own private interpretation of the bible is not a good thing; we need the infallible authority of “The Church” (guess which one) in order to understand the bible correctly.
Why is there such emphasis on the religious institution here? I have thought about this a lot over the past several years. One partial explanation: the CC has issued several ancient “clarifications” on the authority of the Catholic Church. Among these, are “unum sanctam”, the bull that proclaimed, “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”: “outside of the Church, there is no salvation” .
This isn’t “church authority”, it is church abuse. Since the Catholic Church no longer supports this error, it is to be credited, but some of the lingering damage remains to this day, and it can clearly be noticed by the Catholic talking points mentioned above. The reason for my selection of this topic, is to shed some light on all of this. I want to make one last point: I don’t see these “talking points” in most Catholics that I know, and most Catholics avoid “church worship”. I brought it up only because I see it here frequently.
The Church both is and isn’t the institution on Earth. It is something more mysterious than that.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (Eph 5: 25-32)