Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?


#1

I come to this post from so deep in my heart I can’t express it in words. Why are the “old ways” gaining importance and acceptance, especially among us younger Catholics? The older people in my life ask why would we want it. They say, no one knew what was going on during mass, no one knew the Latin, it was so seperate from the people and didn’t include the faithful. Why is it that when you go to a Tridentine mass, you see people young, middle age, and older that are so in love with it. It is inspiring. The fervor and love and devotion of those attending is immense it gives you chills. I’m not trying to stir any pot, but I know so many younger Catholics that don’t attend mass, but would love to attend Tridentine mass, and say they would continue so. Is it the fact that my generation was raised by the older generation that always told us about the old ways and uplifted those old ways and made them seem sacred, I don’t know how to explain it. Is it the gregorian chant, the latin, the tradition? I think a lot of the younger people in this country have no long standing tradition and look back because of the traditions our grandparents and parents had and how it all changed, and want that tradition. Even if it is a totally different mass experience. Sure, no laity Eucharistic ministers, no fancy music, no sign of the peace, no easy communion in the hand, etc… what the elders in our lives tell us, the old church mass totally seperated the people from the liturgy. Why then do so many people I know hope for and long to have me take them to a Tridentine mass? Even though they know they realize that it isn’t anything like they are used to? Is it the fact that they are living a false hope in seeing a bit of tradition, or is it novelty? I am not sure. For me it isn’t novelty. Although it is a totally different liturgical experience, it is still one of deep community. The bishop has to grant an indult. A priest has to make a deep committment to say Tridentine mass, learn the rubrics, the latin, etc… it is a deep committment of the faithful to have the choir learn the gregorian chant, and a committment of the people to learn the latin for the mass and how it is performed and the more complex liturgical calender and mass. It is also a big commitment to give up receiving the Blood of Christ, and people doing the readings, and so forth. In one way the mass we have today is communal. but in another way to make a Tridentine Mass community work is equally communual, even if we are seperated from performing many of the tasks we can in the new mass. So why is the Tridentine mass idea and movement so popular among younger Catholics and why do so many people want to experience it and even make it their first choice in their Roman Catholic faith, even though we didn’t grow up with it? It is trully a mystery, and one I don’t think will fade away, and only grow, I only hope.
If more people want to attend Tridentine mass, and it gets more Catholics back in the pews on Sundays, why can it be such a bad idea? Sorry to rant, but just talking about a few observations.
My daughter is young and she even prays in Latin, that takes commitment from me, I only hope she gets to attend Tridentine Mass when she is my age. I love my faith, I love the modern mass, I love the Catholic church. It is my life, my love, and my being. Sorry, but as our fellow Christians say, I had to testify. I just pray that we can all experience it, and even though there is strong feelings against performing the old ways, I think there is no way of totally eliminating those who prefer to keep them alive, and there is no reason to ban them. Thank you all for listening. God Bless all of us.


#2

Read “The New Faithful: Why Young Americans are Embracing Christian Orthodoxy” by Colleen Carroll. It discusses why young people especially are drawn to older traditions such as the Latin Mass. This isn’t just a Catholic thing either. Similar trends are seen in the protestant churches and in Judaism.

In some cases, it is like you say, young people don’t have a sense of tradition so they look to the traditions of their grandparents and great-grandparents. In other cases, it is just a dislike of the lack of black and white, yes and no answers and a yearning for something concrete and dependable. In reality, it is probably a little bit of both.

But this is actually a* good* thing. The generation of the Millenios, those who were in their teens and early twenties at the Millenium (and I am in this group) tend to be more devout and so vocations are starting to rise somewhat. They also tend to be very politically active, so there is the possiblity of reversing some of the horrible laws our parents’ generation passed (Roe vs. Wade immediately comes to mind).

Who knows, perhaps the future of the Church does indeed lie in it’s past…I for one, would not be opposed.


#3

Also, you might read Timebombs of Vatican II to see how protestant the Catholic Church has become with changes in the liturgy, and abusive envolvement of the laity who want to become more clerical.

In the “old days” the faithful followed along with detailed missals and knew what the priest was saying (softly). It was true “active participation in the Mass” and so unlike the entertainment factor that appeals to many today.


#4

MrS,

As a Post-Vatican II person I can say that I “get more out” of the Traditional Mass than the Novus Ordo. In fact, I will only go to an Novus Ordo if I absolutely have to even then I pray before the Mass that I will not be infected with the “spirit of Vatican II” during the Mass.


#5

I am 28 and have begun attending the Tridentine Mass- nothing against the NO per se- but it is very difficult in the to find a parish (especially in the Belleville Diocese where i use to live_ that does not have;

  1. Risen Christ on a cross in the sanctuary.

  2. Altar servettes in flip-flops

  3. Lay testimonial homilies

  4. Eucharistic Ministresses sticking their hands in the tabernacle to put consecrated hosts in a candy dish.

  5. Precious blood distributed in glass water goblets.

This does not even address the worst I have seen like wiccan dancing, EEMC’s concelebrating Mass, no kneeling, and invalid matter.


#6

the bible teaches to judge things according to their fruits. what are the fruits of the post vatican II renewal? have we seen an increase in vocations? are people entering the catholic church because of it? are people going to mass more? i don’t think you can say that their are any fruits, only suffering and dissent.


#7

[quote=OrthoCath]MrS,

As a Post-Vatican II person I can say that I “get more out” of the Traditional Mass than the Novus Ordo. In fact, I will only go to an Novus Ordo if I absolutely have to even then I pray before the Mass that I will not be infected with the “spirit of Vatican II” during the Mass.
[/quote]

AMEN and

AMEN


#8

[quote=Fast_ed75]I am 28 and have begun attending the Tridentine Mass- nothing against the NO per se- but it is very difficult in the to find a parish (especially in the Belleville Diocese where i use to live_ that does not have;

  1. Risen Christ on a cross in the sanctuary.

  2. Altar servettes in flip-flops

  3. Lay testimonial homilies

  4. Eucharistic Ministresses sticking their hands in the tabernacle to put consecrated hosts in a candy dish.

  5. Precious blood distributed in glass water goblets.

This does not even address the worst I have seen like wiccan dancing, EEMC’s concelebrating Mass, no kneeling, and invalid matter.
[/quote]

Then you see first hand… every one of these are serious abuses that some Catholics want to become the “norm”. Hang in there… Weak Bishops are being replaced by better ones. And more and more seminarians give us cause for great hope. Support the prayers of the TLM when ever you can. And go where ever there is Adoration. You can’t lose with Christ.


#9

I guess I can tell my own story here. I’m 34 years old. I was raised with the new Mass. I went through twelve years of Catholic school and five years of Jesuit college. My catechesis was so poor that I believed that the only things a Catholic was bound to believe were the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I fell away from Holy Mother Church for nearly twelve years. I was, however, married in the Catholic Church during that time.

When my wife became pregnant with our first child, a thought struck my mind like a bolt of lightning - how could I raise my children Catholic if I wasn’t a good Catholic? So I decided to start going back to Mass. I tried going to the parishes in my area, but the abuses were so horrible that I became quickly discouraged. My mom sent me an article about the increasing popularity of the old Mass. I searched the internet and found a Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) near me. My first TLM (for lack of a better term) felt like coming home. It was as though the skies had opened and I had caught a brief, glorious glimpse of Heaven.

I’ll readily admit that liturgical abuses that seem so pervasive in the new Mass drove me to the TLM. However, the old Mass captured me. Sure, it is aesthetically beautiful, but there is so much more to it. The prayers of the old Mass are, in my humble opinion, far superior to those of the new Mass. Not only can I teach my children the “Faith of my Fathers” by teaching them the old Mass, but those lessons will be repeated over and over every time they assist at Mass. I cannot say the same for the new Mass.

I do not deny the validity of the new Mass. It is even quite good when done reverently and in Latin. You’ll never convince me that it is as good as the old Mass.

Oh, there is something else – the sense of spiritual communion that I find wherever I assist at the TLM. I’ve heard the objections of the older crowd to the TLM:
[list]
*]The TLM was subject to abuse too.
[/list]True enough. I think the level and severity of abuse at the new Mass is much worse.
[list]
*]No one knew what was going on at Mass.
[/list]Whose fault was that? I’ve been going to the TLM for almost six years, and I understand most (if not all) of what goes on at Mass.
[list]
*]No one knew the Latin.
[/list]I don’t know most of it either. I follow along in my English-Latin missal. Almost all of the Missals available for use in the TLM were printed well before Vatican II. It seems to me that anyone can follow the Mass quite well using these Missals.
[list]
*]The faithful were not able to participate in the Mass.
[/list]If by participation you mean they were not able to make spectacles of themselves on the altar, I’d say that was a good thing. Participation in the Mass should be, first and foremost, spiritual. By following along in my Missal, by following the actions of the priest, deacon, subdeacon, and altar boys, I am able to participate quite well spiritually. I always feel that I am in full spiritual communion with my fellow parishioners.

I could never have returned to Holy Mother Church via the new Mass. It would not have happened. If a future Pope eliminates the permission for the old Mass, will I attend the new Mass? Of course, I am an obedient Catholic. Will I shop around for the most reverent new Mass? Of course! Will I be happy about it? Of course not.


#10

because the only liturgical dancing taking place is the reverent movement of the celebrant and the acolytes as they prepare for and carry out the sacred rites, and because the music is sacred rather than profane, and because the meaning of the words is unchanging, rather than being modified to every whim of the popular culture.


#11

[quote=MrS]Also, you might read Timebombs of Vatican II to see how protestant the Catholic Church has become with changes in the liturgy, and abusive envolvement of the laity who want to become more clerical.

In the “old days” the faithful followed along with detailed missals and knew what the priest was saying (softly). It was true “active participation in the Mass” and so unlike the entertainment factor that appeals to many today.
[/quote]

Fr. Peter Stravinskas (Redemptionis Sacramentum CD) says that the reason for people desiring the Tridentine mass is NOT because of the new liturgy BUT because of the ABUSES of the new liturgy.

He also mentioned that one lady came up to him after a Latin mass and thanked him for the beautiful Tridentine mass. His reply was, it was not the Tridentine mass he did but a new litugy mass in Latin. So basically, there was nothing wrong with the new liturgy!

You are absolutely right about “abusive envolvement of the laity who want to become more clerical” and vice versa - those are what are putting people off the new liturgy.


#12

I am also a post vatican II person (aged 33) and have known only the Mass as it is celebrated today.
Yes there is a lot going on in it that should not be happening. Yes tere are times it gets me mad and I wonder if I shuld search out and attend a TLM.

After much prayer and soul searching I have been given peace with the following understanding.

  1. The Mass as it stands is valid and most acceptable to Almighty God.

  2. We are in a spring time in the Church where a lot of spring cleaning has to happen.

  3. God is calling his cleaning team together at ths present time.

  4. If He has stirred up your soul to recognise the abuses that are taking place in and on our Sanctuaries, and the hands of Priests and the misguided Laity then guess what you are being called on to help clean them out! The abuses exist not bacause of Vatican II but because of the confusion that exists in its aftermath. The folks responsible for sowing these seeds of confusion are on the deacrease and it is now our time to restore the dignity.

Folks. Vatican II is only a single generation old! Our generation (the 30 somethings) must listen to the Holy Father and follow his teachings. He has given us permission to tackle the abuses we witness. Do not walk away. Stand up and fight for the dignity of the Holy Mass. By all means keep in your heart the beauty of the TLM as something to be restored in the light of Vatican II. We have something to aspire to.

Let’s Begin!!


#13

[quote=Patrick2340]I guess I can tell my own story here. I’m 34 years old. I was raised with the new Mass. I went through twelve years of Catholic school and five years of Jesuit college. My catechesis was so poor that I believed that the only things a Catholic was bound to believe were the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I fell away from Holy Mother Church for nearly twelve years. I was, however, married in the Catholic Church during that time.

When my wife became pregnant with our first child, a thought struck my mind like a bolt of lightning - how could I raise my children Catholic if I wasn’t a good Catholic? So I decided to start going back to Mass. I tried going to the parishes in my area, but the abuses were so horrible that I became quickly discouraged. My mom sent me an article about the increasing popularity of the old Mass. I searched the internet and found a Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) near me. My first TLM (for lack of a better term) felt like coming home. It was as though the skies had opened and I had caught a brief, glorious glimpse of Heaven.

I’ll readily admit that liturgical abuses that seem so pervasive in the new Mass drove me to the TLM. However, the old Mass captured me. Sure, it is aesthetically beautiful, but there is so much more to it. The prayers of the old Mass are, in my humble opinion, far superior to those of the new Mass. Not only can I teach my children the “Faith of my Fathers” by teaching them the old Mass, but those lessons will be repeated over and over every time they assist at Mass. I cannot say the same for the new Mass.

I do not deny the validity of the new Mass. It is even quite good when done reverently and in Latin. You’ll never convince me that it is as good as the old Mass.

Oh, there is something else – the sense of spiritual communion that I find wherever I assist at the TLM. I’ve heard the objections of the older crowd to the TLM:
[list]
*]The TLM was subject to abuse too.
[/list]True enough. I think the level and severity of abuse at the new Mass is much worse.
[list]
*]No one knew what was going on at Mass.
[/list]Whose fault was that? I’ve been going to the TLM for almost six years, and I understand most (if not all) of what goes on at Mass.
[list]
*]No one knew the Latin.
[/list]I don’t know most of it either. I follow along in my English-Latin missal. Almost all of the Missals available for use in the TLM were printed well before Vatican II. The faithful were not able to participate in the Mass.
If by participation you mean they were not able to make spectacles of themselves on the altar, I’d say that was a good thing. Participation in the Mass should be, first and foremost, spiritual.
I could never have returned to Holy Mother Church via the new Mass. It would not have happened. If a future Pope eliminates the permission for the old Mass, will I attend the new Mass? Of course, I am an obedient Catholic. Will I shop around for the most reverent new Mass? Of course! Will I be happy about it? Of course not.
[/quote]

Very nicely stated. Fr Fessio spoke a few years ago in Canada on the TLM and the NO in Latin. He was for both because the NO in Latin only allows for one Eucharistic Prayer, “for many” instead of the “for all” etc., I was heartened at his explanations of the abuses that come with translation “errors” from Latin to English, and how the Vatican is addressing these issues (slow but sure). When the Church makes these corrections, “many”, not “all” will be upset and perhaps fall away. We can reduce that number with prayer, and instruction.


#14

[quote=bob]Fr. Peter Stravinskas (Redemptionis Sacramentum CD) says that the reason for people desiring the Tridentine mass is NOT because of the new liturgy BUT because of the ABUSES of the new liturgy.

He also mentioned that one lady came up to him after a Latin mass and thanked him for the beautiful Tridentine mass. His reply was, it was not the Tridentine mass he did but a new litugy mass in Latin. So basically, there was nothing wrong with the new liturgy!

You are absolutely right about “abusive envolvement of the laity who want to become more clerical” and vice versa - those are what are putting people off the new liturgy.
[/quote]

Well Father Stravinskas is welcome to his opinions. The abuses only start people to question the “good” of the New Mass.


#15

[quote=Fergal]I am also a post vatican II person (aged 33) and have known only the Mass as it is celebrated today.
Yes there is a lot going on in it that should not be happening. Yes tere are times it gets me mad and I wonder if I shuld search out and attend a TLM.

After much prayer and soul searching I have been given peace with the following understanding.

  1. The Mass as it stands is valid and most acceptable to Almighty God.

  2. We are in a spring time in the Church where a lot of spring cleaning has to happen.

  3. God is calling his cleaning team together at ths present time.

  4. If He has stirred up your soul to recognise the abuses that are taking place in and on our Sanctuaries, and the hands of Priests and the misguided Laity then guess what you are being called on to help clean them out! The abuses exist not bacause of Vatican II but because of the confusion that exists in its aftermath. The folks responsible for sowing these seeds of confusion are on the deacrease and it is now our time to restore the dignity.

Folks. Vatican II is only a single generation old! Our generation (the 30 somethings) must listen to the Holy Father and follow his teachings. He has given us permission to tackle the abuses we witness. Do not walk away. Stand up and fight for the dignity of the Holy Mass. By all means keep in your heart the beauty of the TLM as something to be restored in the light of Vatican II. We have something to aspire to.

Let’s Begin!!
[/quote]

Sheesh, let’s start a restoration in light of Niceaea,Chalcedon,Constantinople I-II, Lateran I-IV,Vatican I,Trent,Florence,and many all the 23 Ecumenical Councils… Not just Vatican II!


#16

I do not deny the validity of the new Mass. It is even quite good when done reverently and in Latin. You’ll never convince me that it is as good as the old Mass.

i think that the eucharistic prayer said out loud is an improvement and the three readings in vernacular is better too. now i agree some of the old prayers were nice, and i like psalm 42. but SC passed overwhelmingly in vatican II. the liturgical reforms of pius x and xii lead up to SC so that the faithful could more actively participate. i think the reason the tridentine mass is doing so well is that people are trying to participate as a result of the new mass and its problems.

He was for both because the NO in Latin only allows for one Eucharistic Prayer

you can’t say eucharistic prayer II,III, or IV, in latin??


#17

[quote=MrS]Very nicely stated. Fr Fessio spoke a few years ago in Canada on the TLM and the NO in Latin. He was for both because the NO in Latin only allows for one Eucharistic Prayer, “for many” instead of the “for all” etc., I was heartened at his explanations of the abuses that come with translation “errors” from Latin to English, and how the Vatican is addressing these issues (slow but sure). When the Church makes these corrections, “many”, not “all” will be upset and perhaps fall away. We can reduce that number with prayer, and instruction.
[/quote]

No - all four Eucharistic prayers are also optional for the Latin NO. In our church, the priest almost invariably uses Prex II, unfortunately (there’s no clear and unambiguous sacrificial formula as there is in all the others). But it certainly does have ‘pro multis’, rather than ‘for all’. And in the Mass overall I keep finding other bits in the ICEL translation which are completely unfaithful to the Latin - not just abrupt, rather rude translations which treat almighty God like a waiter, but things which are simply wrong.

Bother. One of my sons wants online, so I’ve got to go.

Sue


#18

the answers I have to your rant could be endless, but I want to focus on one narrow thing that drives me nuts in the norvus ordo Mass that actually wasnt a problem in the 70s when it was getting normalized. Way too many variations!!! here in grand rapids michigan on my side of town there are 7 parishes with in less than 3 miles of eachother. and on sumday is those 7 churches you get 7 different Masses. for example extra hymns added in some, different penintential rites used, some priests exlude the second reading, etc etc. no one can tell me that for the penitential rite that my church’s faithful need angels and saints invoked for us, but faithful in the church a half a mile down the street dont and should only get long,christ, lord have mercy at the beginning of Mass. some churches pray the gloria early in Mass some sing it, some dont have it at all.
I have been to the tridentine Mass before and like it very much. because it is uniform. doesnt matter what priest is the celebrent, you get the same Mass every time. Something I long for with the current Mass. Ohyess also, the councel of trent Mass is strictly an oragan Mass , more holy no guitar group making you think you are at a conceart rather than a Mass.


#19

[quote=oat soda]i think that the eucharistic prayer said out loud is an improvement and the three readings in vernacular is better too. now i agree some of the old prayers were nice, and i like psalm 42. but SC passed overwhelmingly in vatican II. the liturgical reforms of pius x and xii lead up to SC so that the faithful could more actively participate. i think the reason the tridentine mass is doing so well is that people are trying to participate as a result of the new mass and its problems. you can’t say eucharistic prayer II,III, or IV, in latin??
[/quote]

Well the 2 readings before the Gospel are an innovation in the Latin Rite. The readings choosen for Sundays and Holydays at the TTLM are over 1500 years old,while the New Mass Readings are only as old as the Mass. Also the 3year system of readings is a break with Catholic Tradition. The NO Mass was the first one to do this.


#20

Another reason may be, there seems to be less opportunity in the old rite for the priest or others to parade their own ego.

So fewer running commentaries, closer attention to rubric, no jack in the box cantors.


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