Why isn't the Holy Spirit enough?


#1

I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?


#2

How do you “know” that all we need is the Holy Spirit?

You read it in the New Testament…

But if all we need is the Holy Spirit, why was the New Testament written in the first place?

To (according to you?) teach us that we don’t need teachers.

So, if we really take that teaching to heart, then we really shouldn’t read the Bible. Nor should we listen to preachers.

It all makes sense.


#3

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Because it is very easy for us humans to ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit. For the flesh is weak and we tend to de less disciplined to just focus on the Holy Spirit.


#4

bengeorge -
I’m just setting out an example of what a Protestant said to me. :slight_smile:


#5

[quote=gracelife]bengeorge -
I’m just setting out an example of what a Protestant said to me. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

ah, well then i have set out an example of what you might say to him/her


#6

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Well, considering that if there was no magisterium, the Church would be largely Arian now. The Arians believed they had the Spirit, so did the Nestorians, and the Monophosytes, and Monothelites. All the heretics believed they had the Spirit on their side, but they were leading the Church into error. Without the succession of bishops to maintain communion Christianity would not exist due to the way people are. Yes, the Spirit is the teacher, but He does it through the Bishops.


#7

The Holy Spirit is enough, and he works through the Magisterium as well as in individuals, each according to its proper role.

When I John 2:27 speaks of needing no one to teach “you” he is using the plural “you” – i.e., John means the Church.

For example, I, in isolation, may receive the Holy Spirit for understanding, but not for the same level of teaching authority that subsists in the Church, which has received the Holy Spirit God-breathed from Christ Himself for the teaching office (Jn 20-19-23).

In John 14:26, again, Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not to a wide audience of disciples.

Mark 13:11 – again: Peter, James & John. Apostles.


#8

Gracelife,
Welcome to the forums.

Look more closely at your question. The Holy Spirit is the source of the magersterial authority. It is a gift from God in order to build up, lead, and safeguard the Body of Christ.

Just as speaking in tongues, prophecy, being called to the priesthood, healing, etc are all gifts of the Spirit, and are wrought by His power, so the Magesetrium.

Why do we need Christians who can preach? Or heal? Why do we need phrophetic words?

See 1 Cor. 12: 4-11:

There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
there are different forms of service but the same Lord; 6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

And know Paul’s anaglogy to the body (1Cor 12: 12-18)

As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. Now the body is not a single part, but many. If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.

And finally, the conclusion to the analogy (1 Cor 12:27-30)

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

What do you think?
God Bless,
VC


#9

First, do NOT make the Protestant error of reading out of context. The way you gave examples and stated questions indicates you left context behind.

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.
[/quote]

Read the ENTIRE book of 1 John without stopping. Get some water and read it aloud as it was meant to be read without stop. Perhaps have someone read it to you? You will see he writes that you have ALLREADY been taught and to beware of the new teachers leading you astray (i.e. Protestant missleading preachers as example)

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

When did the Holy Spirit visit each of us? Proof? How will the Holy Spirit do this? Do we just feel like He visited so it must be true? Perhaps Christ’s visible body, His Catholic Church is the means the Holy Spirit works through to teach us? Why did Jesus found the Catholic Church if all we need is the Holy Spirit? Why have a Bible to be so often miss-self-interpreted if the Holoy Spirit teaches us?

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

Was Jesus talking to you or to “Peter, James, John and Andrew”? Try reading in context and more then on verse at a time.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?

We need the Catholic Church because it is the visible body of Christ on earth. Jesus founded the Church. If He founded it then perhaps you can disagree with Him over it, I won’t. If it’s good enough for Him, if He founded it and says to stay loyal to it then I will follow Him without question.

PS, The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. This is also a subject of other threads.


#10

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Grace,
Here is an example from Acts 8:26-39 that illustrates the need for an authority (The Magesterium) to interpret Scripture:

Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.” So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth. In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth."Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him. As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?” Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him. When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing.

The Church teaches us that we need to look at the entire Bible when we try to interpret scripture. We can’t just take some passages (such as those you mentioned) out of context. As Catholics we are fortunate to have the Magesterium to establish guidelines for interpreting Scripture. The many thousands of Protestant denominations illustrate what happens when people try to interpret God’s word without an authority.

God Bless,
Gary


#11

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Over 33,000 denominations all claiming the name Christian, and all using the Bible. If they all had the Holy Spirit, they wouldn’t come up with that many interpretaions.


#12

[quote=gracelife]So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Yea, why did Jesus even found a Church and give it the Authority of keys to the kingdom of heaven and the say whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven? Why indeed!


#13

[quote=gracelife]I John 2:27 tells us that we need no man to teach us because the anointing abides in us.

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

Mark 13:11 illustrates to us that the Holy Spirit is well qualified to teach us.

So why do we need the Magesterium, if we have the Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

If you read the actual quotes, none of them say you don’t need anything else except the Holy Spirit. This is akin to the argument fundamentalists use when they cite 2 Tim 3:16 in support of Sola Scriptura. The verses simply don’t say what they want them to say.

In fact, taken to their logical extreme, this interpretation says too much. If all you need is the Spirit, you don’t need evangelists, the Bible or preachers either.


#14

Traditionally, Sola Scriptura was never met to be isolated from the Church or teachers. That’s a very modern-individualistic interpretation on the doctrine anyway. Even tradition and scripture based churches can’t decide on which traditions to follow. I’m not sure why I would trust the Megisterium inherently anymore then any other tradition, even the protestant sola scriptura tradition. (yes, it’s a tradition itself, and no it’s not contradictory…unless you take a hard “radical reformation” view of it!)


#15

[quote=Knight4God]Traditionally, Sola Scriptura was never met to be isolated from the Church or teachers. That’s a very modern-individualistic interpretation on the doctrine anyway. Even tradition and scripture based churches can’t decide on which traditions to follow. I’m not sure why I would trust the Megisterium inherently anymore then any other tradition, even the protestant sola scriptura tradition. (yes, it’s a tradition itself, and no it’s not contradictory…unless you take a hard “radical reformation” view of it!)
[/quote]

Yes we are quite sure which Traditions to follow. We follow all Traditions through the continuous teaching of the Church. You will find all the modern teachings of the Church in the Church of the first few centuries.


#16

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