Why people become traditionalists

Still no list? :hmmm:

[quote=Melman]It’s just not going to be possible to have a civil, rational discussion about this, is it?
[/quote]

Who is being uncivil and irrational?

[quote=PASCENDI]Still no list? :hmmm:
[/quote]

Yep no list, they cannot even come up with a list.

[quote=Iohannes]Yep no list, they cannot even come up with a list.
[/quote]

But, I suspect it won’t prevent them from continuing to level the charge. Reminds me of what was said when the oppositon couldn’t produce any proof in its case against Justice Clarence Thomas: “Its not the nature of the evidence but the seriousness of the charge.”

[quote=Iohannes]In painting why I am a traditionalist:

http://www.unavoce.org/agemian.jpg


[/quote]

Wow! Beautiful!
A picture paints a thousand words.

See these:

sedevacantist.com/newmass/precis.html

sedevacantist.com/newmass/qtvjmcn.htm

Sedevacantists are not traditionalist Catholics and the New Mass is still valid and licit despite the horrible translation and the watering down of the prayers.

Is it possible to be a traditionalist without being schismatic? Or are the two inexorably linked?

Here’s my thinking - there is a line of thought that conservatives are simply defending today what was liberal yesterday. We see this in politics - the ‘conservative’ GW Bush seems to hold about the same beliefs now as Lyndon B. Johnson, the liberal, did 40 years ago. When you look at the history of conservative political thought you see an inexorable move to the left, all be it slowly. The original conservatives in England in the vein of Edumund Burke, were Royalists. The conservative of today is more likely to defend the ideas of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine, who at the time were radicals.
So, as I understand it, the traditionalist is not moving at all, instead of just moving more slowly to the left than the liberals.
The whole left-right thing is just a convience here, I understand it’s more nuanced than that but you know what I’m trying to get across.

I’m coming at this with no preconceptions, I hope. I have no formal religious education but I’ve always had an agile mind and I read voraciously.
I’m new to the Catholic faith, not even baptized yet. However my inclinations, in any idealogical spectrum, are to slide to the right :slight_smile:
I choose the Catholic faith out of all the Christian denominations because it is the oldest, most tested doctrine. The more Catholic theology I read, the more I believed I made the right choice. When I attended a Latin mass this past weekend I knew I made the right choice. There is no longer any doubt in my mind as to where I belong.
There is a book I read recently, available online, that puts across the theory that egalitarian thought of the enlightenment - first expressed in the Protestant Reformation, institutionalized in the French Revolution and carried to it’s natural conclusion in Marxism is at the root of the trouble. Should you want to read it you can do so for free here:

tfp.org/what_we_think/rcr_book_online/rcr_intro.html

I do detect a trace of that thinking in the sedevacantists tracts tho, a rejection of authority. I see the sin of pride in someone that thinks they are so much smarter or wiser than the hiearchy of the Church.
I also see the Leftist catholics that seem to want to bend Catholic teachings to serve their own socialist agenda.
Liberals often want change for change’s sake - they want to endlessly tinker with things.
I reject radical change out of hand, it offends my conservative sense that change, if it occurs, should be gradual and prudent. The constructions of society serve a purpose and exist for a reason, to tear them down in one imprudent act may cause serious and unforseen consequences. Could this be what has happened with Vatican II? I don’t have enough information yet to make that decision, I may never but my first impulse, remaining philsophically consistent, is to say it’s possible.

If I am a Catholic who wishes to participate in a traditional sense. Is there somehwere to learn the traditional latin mass and how to particpate and such? Or should I just show up and make a fool out of myself?

People, and ESPECIALLY YOUTH, become traditionalists because they are sick and tired of the same old:

a.) liberal, irreverent Catholic Masses
b.) Protestant services, especially the rock concert type
c.) relativist, truth-is-what-you-make-of-it philosophy
d.) lack of authority in their lives

As a convert, I was b, and my school life was (and still is) full of c and d.

As long as youth and teens understand the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the age-old tradition in the Traditional Mass, you can be sure of a religious revival. If it weren’t for traditionalism, I wouldn’t be here. But, I don’t think the bishops are listening.

[quote=A.Pelliccio]If I am a Catholic who wishes to participate in a traditional sense. Is there somehwere to learn the traditional latin mass and how to particpate and such? Or should I just show up and make a fool out of myself?
[/quote]

You won’t make a fool of yourself. I went to my first Latin Mass last Sunday. Actually, you kneel through most of the mass and only stand for the reading of the Gospel. Just sit in back and do what everyone in front of you does. You can study up by looking at the TLM mass with English translation here:

sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm

If you want to find indult latin masses go here to the following site. Look up your state, then for mass times that are followed by “(Latin)” or “(Tridentine)”.

masstimes.org/ASP/Db/Lookups/ByStates.asp?By=Cities&LanguageId=17

You will also find schismatic SSPX & SSPV churches at their respective web sites and where they meet. I know the SSPX in Norfolk meets in the Doubtree Hotel. :rolleyes:

[quote=A.Pelliccio]If I am a Catholic who wishes to participate in a traditional sense. Is there somehwere to learn the traditional latin mass and how to particpate and such? Or should I just show up and make a fool out of myself?
[/quote]

-Find the best clothes you have and attend the Mass, first get yourself immersed, do not bother looking at a missal. On the third or second attendence, start looking at the Missal.

-Keep a reverent silence, whisper only if you need to.
-If you see the tabernacle, genuflect before sitting down.

Most of the responses will be done by the Altar Servers unless it is a dialogue Mass.

Here is a Chart on what to do what during a Low, Sung and Solemn Mass:
unavoce.org/stsk.htm

[quote=kjvail] The original conservatives in England in the vein of Edumund Burke, were Royalists.
[/quote]

I believe Burke was a Whig.

And most Catholics at the time of our Revolution sided with the Loyalists as they took oaths to the crown with God called as witness seriously. Too, the King was starting to ease up on Catholics and they weren’t ready to take a chance with Roundheads or Puritans.

[quote=Iohannes]-Find the best clothes you have …
[/quote]

At the one I went to, a couple of men had on coats and ties, the others (like me) had on collared shirts and slacks without ties… although, oddly enough, one guy had on a T-shirt and he helped with the collection. Maybe he was poor? A couple of the women had scarves over their heads. This is also a Norvus Ordo church… so maybe they are a little lax on dress even for the Tridentine Mass. :hmmm:

The sole Alter Server did indeed provide most of the responses… its a good thing too, because the priest spoke Latin rapid-fire. I know the Our Father in Latin and tried to follow with him, but - zoom - he was done before I was half-way through.

Didn’t matter, I just kinda watched and enjoyed it and didn’t worry too much about following along. Every movement of the priest during the mass is significant.

Will I go back? Darn-tootin’!

In summary, the general response to why people become traditionalists is because of the general reverence present in the Traditional Masses. It is unfortunate that the same reverence is not present in many Novus Ordo Masses.

It is possible to be a Traditionalist is some sense and not be schismatic. It is not a problem to prefer the Tridentine Mass. It is also not a problem to go to a Tridentine Mass (so long as it is licit, i.e. an indult Mass). Several orders have been given a plenary indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

The problem arises when people start saying that the Novus Ordo is illicit. This amounts to saying that the gates of Hell did prevail over the Church, and she promulgated a Mass that is opposed to God’s will. It is immediately apparent that it is impossible for this to have occurred. Therefore, the Novus Ordo must be a licit rite.

And most Catholics at the time of our Revolution sided with the Loyalists as they took oaths to the crown with God called as witness seriously. Too, the King was starting to ease up on Catholics and they weren’t ready to take a chance with Roundheads or Puritans.

I find that Catholics tend to be more traditional in government, as well as in religion. Historically speaking, it was the Catholics that were opposed to overthrowing the monarchies. I’m a closet monarchist in America, so I can partially sympathize with the old-school Loyalists.

[quote=OraProNobis]At the one I went to, a couple of men had on coats and ties, the others (like me) had on collared shirts and slacks without ties… although, oddly enough, one guy had on a T-shirt and he helped with the collection. Maybe he was poor? A couple of the women had scarves over their heads. This is also a Norvus Ordo church… so maybe they are a little lax on dress even for the Tridentine Mass. :hmmm:

The sole Alter Server did indeed provide most of the responses… its a good thing too, because the priest spoke Latin rapid-fire. I know the Our Father in Latin and tried to follow with him, but - zoom - he was done before I was half-way through.

Didn’t matter, I just kinda watched and enjoyed it and didn’t worry too much about following along. Every movement of the priest during the mass is significant.

Will I go back? Darn-tootin’!
[/quote]

At the indult Mass in my area, people who do not dress properly are charitably notified by the ushers so next time they come they will dress more appropriately.

When St. Mary’s by the Sea had an indult before it was revoked by the Bishop, most of the people I saw dressed nicely for both the Traditional Latin Mass and the English Novus Ordo.

I have been to a Solemn High Mass with a priest,a deacon, a subdeacon, a masters of ceremony and 12 altar servers. It was an amazing sight to see.

[quote=Archbishop 10-K]I find that Catholics tend to be more traditional in government, as well as in religion. Historically speaking, it was the Catholics that were opposed to overthrowing the monarchies. I’m a closet monarchist in America, so I can partially sympathize with the old-school Loyalists.
[/quote]

Check out Our Lady of Antonement Anglican Use Catholic Parish!

www.atonementonline.com

[quote=Archbishop 10-K]I find that Catholics tend to be more traditional in government, as well as in religion. Historically speaking, it was the Catholics that were opposed to overthrowing the monarchies. I’m a closet monarchist in America, so I can partially sympathize with the old-school Loyalists.
[/quote]

I didn’t pick my words well - I meant Burke’s writings reflect a preference for and support for the monarchy. I am also a monarchist - nice to know I’m no the only one in the US lol. I have found a few websites but most pro-monarchy sites appear in languages I cannot read :frowning: .

[quote=kjvail] I am also a monarchist - nice to know I’m no the only one in the US lol. I have found a few websites but most pro-monarchy sites appear in languages I cannot read :frowning: .
[/quote]

Charles Coulombe writes about the subject

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.