Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

Just a reminder in this repeated question of those who don’t like or understand our intercessory prayers, Catholics primarily pray to Jesus. Sometimes we spend so much time defending our praying that we neglect to remind the questioner that we do indeed pray to Jesus throughout our Mass, services, and prayers.

Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen

This is not exactly what you are asking for but it’s similar. Paul prayed and encouraged others to pray for his dead friend Onesimus in 2 Timothy

16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Also Revelation5:8 and 8:3 clearly show the saints praying for the church

Jewish tradition of which Christianity comes prays to those in heaven.

All Christians did it until the 1700’s

Hebrews 12 also makes it clear

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:1, 22-24 NASB)

We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses…the Saints.

We come to “the spirits of the righteous made perfect” … The saints.

So it seems the burden of proof is on you to say why your 300 year old novelty is true.

:thumbsup:

The saints it is speaking of were alive at that time.

Their bodies may be in the grave, some of them (with a few exceptions like the Blessed Virgin Mary, Enoch, and Elijah who have their bodies with them, as well).

Regardless, they are as alive as you and me, probably more so, and more than in a position to intervene on our behalf. In fact, we believe them to be in a better position to intervene, because if they had any sin, it was burned off in purgatory. Nothing sinful can enter heaven. Whereas, we are generally in a state of varying degrees of sinfulness.

Again, we believe it good to ask for prayers from people in heaven and earth. However, if one had to pick, it’d be preferable to ask prayers from those who are already in heaven. They are in a perfect position to help. Many probably would if asked.

If the bible doesn’t contain everything that is needed then who is to say the book of Mormon or the Koran isn’t just another revelation.

I did use the Catechism and the footnotes - it makes me seem smarter than I really am.

-Tim-

Its talking about the saints who are alive on earth, not the ones in heaven.

How do you know? I think it’s more of a reference to someone who is already in heaven, personally.

We don’t see any difference insofar as prayer is concerned. Someone on earth can pray for us or heaven. Either way, it’s all good.

For starters, they don’t have 5000+ fulfilled prophesies.

-Tim-

Well what do you call the corpse of a person that is in the grave? Isn’t their body dead? Of course their spirit is alive.

Those books contradict the Bible, and they don’t go back to the Apostles. That’s why we know they aren’t revealed by God.

My question is, didn’t the Catholic Church put together the Bible? How would you know Esther belongs in the Bible, for example, if the Catholic Church hadn’t made a list of books and included that on it? I think there’s good evidence that the Catholic Church put together the Bible. Do you agree? And if you do, why do you trust its decision? If the Church isn’t infallible, how do you know it didn’t get that wrong?

The body is dead, but it’s from the spirit that we pray anyway, that’s why we don’t think that matters. Does that make sense?

We call a dead body a “corpse” or “cadaver”.

Well, to us, it doesn’t matter if the person in question is in heaven (body in the grave) or has his body still on earth. Insofar as prayer is concerned, it makes no difference to us. Prayer is prayer. A person can intervene for another from heaven or earth, either way.

Recall that Abraham was asked to intervene for the rich man’s (in hell) brothers. Abraham declined. Abraham’s body was in the earth. He resided in heaven, could have intervened from there, just didn’t.

The irony in this: As early as Genesis, the King James Version, even, uses it this way.

“Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.” Gen 12:13, Abram speaking to Sarah.

Fair enough. Just know that in Catholic usage, it means those in Heaven.

Okay. So they’re dead from an earthly perspective. But we’ve shown to you, directly from the Bible, that they are still very much alive in Heaven. Hence, whether or not you agree with the practice, prayer to the saints is not necromancy. (And actually, I even have Baptist friends who agree with me on that point)

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This doesn’t prove that they were praying for us, it only says they were holding golden bowls full of prayers. It did not say they were praying for the saints on earth. Even if it did mean they were praying for saints on earth, it would mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders were praying for us. It did not say all the saints in heaven were holding golden bowls full of prayers. That means you would have to know which 24 elders to pray to.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

This is talking about the saints who are on earth not the saints in heaven

I think it’s referrring to the saints in heaven.

and the extra things the catholic church does in addition to what is written in the bible have how many fulfilled prophesies?

I am in no way advocating Mormons or islam, but when you add to the bible that is where problems start.

THE CHURCH!!!

Matt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my CHURCH and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!

John tells us twice Jesus did tons more than could ever be written ! Is that inconsequential!?

Paul tells us to obey the teachings taught by "word of mouth or by letter "

Do you really think after years of pastoring the only thing the early church believed was a few letters???

The letters (New Testsment)gave the story of Christ and were letters of encouragement or correction to individuals or churches.

There is so much more than that.

It’s as if your pastor preached at your church for 50 years , pastored, counselled, and friended you.

He also wrote one book on his life, a summation, and several letters to various people.

Then he died and you pull out the letters and say well that’s all there is…forget the rest he taught us.

CCCCCCRRRRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZYYYYYYY!

But that’s exactly what you do to Christ and the Apostles.

Plus you deny the Holy Spirit has any power.

Or take away.

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