Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

I would have to read the story again, but I do my best not to speculate. Its better to just say you don’t know the answer than to speculate. If you do speculate make sure to say it is your opinion.

I was listening to a preacher and he said the reason that people settled on mountain tops after the flood was, because they were afraid it would flood again. That is an example of speculation, the bible never says why they lived on the mountains, so its just a guess to say why they lived there.

I think you only know it’s in the Bible because the Catholic bishops in the fourth century made a list of books of the Bible that included that book, and you have to rely on the hope that they made the right decision. Do you have any reason for thinking the Book of Acts is inspired other than because the fourth century Catholic Church said so? If not, why do you trust their decision?

Actually you are you said the saints were on earth. Revelation 8 describes the Angels praying for the saints on earth.

St Michael the Archangel Pray for us.

It appears you are not interested in learning, only making your own decrees and tradition based on…men’s opinions I guess. You try to be your own Pope, but under what authority I don’t know. :shrug:

How do I know that saints also means people on earth? I know it from reading the verses with the word saint in it and understanding the context around it. Also, protestants believe saints also mean Christians on earth. Even though I’m sure you don’t care what the protestant definition on saint is.

Where does the bible say there will be additional revelation? Are you going to give me the verse in John that is talking about the Holy Spirit? That verse is referring to the holy spirit coming and those new revelations are in the rest of the new testament.

Are you talking about rev 8:3?

Revelation 8:3
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne

It never says the angel was praying for anyone, it says he was given much prayers to offer. He was offering (giving) the prayers, he was not praying.

No where is the Holy Spirit limited in the Bible to the writings of the Apostles.

That is nothing but you reading your erroneous tradition in and limiting God.

God had always communicated with his people orally.

Just because it did not get written down in specific canonical books does not mean you throw the word if God in the trash.

We have a dispute here right? You are telling us we are wrong or sinning by invoking saints in prayer. We are calling you a heretic for denying the word of God given by the apostles to the church.

Let’s settle this via Matt 18, Which church should we take it to to get the definitive judgement on this?

What’s the difference?

No no. I’m clear on that you think the word can apply to those on earth, and don’t care whether you use it that way or not. The question is why you think that that passage about what is happening in heaven refers only to those saints on earth.

Where does the bible say there will be additional revelation? Are you going to give me the verse in John that is talking about the Holy Spirit? That verse is referring to the holy spirit coming and those new revelations are in the rest of the new testament.

Didn’t you say you try not to speculate? How do you know that that verse refers to the other scriptural writings - does he say that the this revelation will come in a very specific printed form by a certain date recognizable in a certain way somewhere, and I just missed it? And even if so, how do you know which writings those are? That is, how do you know that the Koran isn’t just a much later version of the bible that is more accurate?

Also though - hold fast to the traditions, both written and oral, and the whole rock thing, keys to heaven, gates of hell not prevailing, all that sort of thing. And a million other things. Please note that one sentence statements that a verse means what you think it means is not an argument, you’re gonna have to give more than that. That sort of thing is along the same lines as me simply saying that “the bible shows that Catholicism is true,” with the slight difference that I’m right. (Being a little tongue in cheek here, but it is something you’ve done a couple times now.)

Revelation 18:20 calls the people in heaven saints. (It also shows people on earth speaking to the saints in heaven, which supports praying to saints.) I think the Bible uses the word “saints” to refer sometimes to people on earth and sometimes to people in heaven, depending on the context.

Where does the bible say there will be additional revelation? Are you going to give me the verse in John that is talking about the Holy Spirit? That verse is referring to the holy spirit coming and those new revelations are in the rest of the new testament.

How do you know? You can’t go telling us we have to prove what we believe from the Bible if the Bible doesn’t say we have to do that. The idea that everything has to be in the Bible, isn’t in the Bible! Therefore it is self-refuting, and it follows that we don’t have to only believe things that are in the Bible. Do you see how logic leads us to that conclusion? Because the idea that everything has to be in the Bible, isn’t in the Bible, and therefore it is self-refuting. What do you think of that argument?

The difference is it never says the angel was praying. The difference is the angel was offering the prayers, which means giving the prayers. What the means who knows. It could mean that the angel was carrying the prayers.

Humility. Are you so confident you please The Lord in all you do that you can just talk to him like you do anyone else? If He physically was standing in front of you, your face would be on the floor. When we ask blessed mother to intercede for us, she takes our prayers which are usually pitiful and presents them to Jesus in a manner that is void our self love and makes our prayers pleasing and acceptable to Him.

You don’t believe angels pray?

I haven’t seen a verse that says angels pray. An angel of a child sees the face of God, but it never says prayer.

Satan spoke with God, so I’ll make a speculation which is my opinion that angels speak to God as well, but speaking to God doesn’t mean someone is praying to God for something. The angels could just receive commands from God, because God doesn’t need angels to tell him what is happening he already knows what is happening.

Like he wrote the prayers on little papers or something and carried them to God?


Wonder why that is necessary when we can pray straight to God!

It seems as if you have created a very absurd scenario to not admit your wrong. I see Protestants do this a lot. They dig themselves in a hole and rather than saying ok pull me out your right, they dig the hole deeper and come up with some extra biblical speculation that is far more speculative and ungrounded than any catholic teaching.

Catholics hold both public revelation which ended with the Apostles that man must believe in order to be saved and in private revelation that you can choose to believe or not to believe. The Church goes to extraordinary lengths when private revelation might have occurred and it usually takes a long time to be approved. The most recent approved apparitions are Our Lord’s revelation to Saint Faustina about Divine Mercy and Our Lady of Fatima. We are not yet permitted to believe in the apparitions at Medjugorje until they have been officially cleared by the Vatican, I am not even sure we are allowed to discuss them on this forum.

A dead person in heaven. Wow as per Christian belief those who are in heaven are more alive than us.

Saint Raphael in the Book of Tobit offers Tobit’s supplications before the glory of The Lord.

Or perhaps c) The differences in detail regarding your belief have little to do with your salvation compared to your acts of kindness?

What is a prayer other than asking for something?

Zechariah 1:12 Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?’

Tobit 12:12a,15 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; . . . I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

Revelation 1:4 . . . Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

The bible called the prayers incense. Was it really incense like smoke or was it something different?

The writer of revelation was looking into the spiritual real and to the best of his ability he described the prayers as incense.

How could smoke be in a bowl, wouldn’t the smoke flow upwards and leave the bowl?

What I get from the verses is that an angel physically took bowls that were filled with prayers and then laid those bowls in front of Jesus.

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