Why should Catholics Abhore OSAS?


#1

I was reading a book last night called “Peace of the Soul” by the late Bishop Fulton Sheen. It’s a marvelous book, full of insight about the human physcy and particularly about what sin has done to mankind. The particular chapter I was on was with regard to modern psychiatry. How Fruedianism in his day (and even still today) tried to write sin off as a product of our societal inhibitions. One psychologist, Nitzshky, even went so far as to say sin until your conscience is seared and you are no longer inhibited by societal moores that hold you back and it does happen. That is how people like Jeffrey Dahmer were able to do the horrors that we read about in the paper.

He spoke that what was lacking is a healthy, what we Catholics call “Examination of Conscience” and I guess if I had to pinpoint my objection to OSAS doctrine that would be my objection. I believe that it neglects a healthy daily reflectoin on what we do in our lives that needs to be rooted out. We are no longer under the law so we no longer have to obey it and even our future sins are fogiven. David speaks of the withering of his soul. Psalm 51 is called the penitential Psalm. It is a great reflection on our sinfulness.

3: For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
4: Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment.
5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6: Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward being; therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart.
7: Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8: Fill me with joy and gladness; let the bones which thou hast broken rejoice.
9: Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
10: Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me.
11: Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me.
12: Restore to me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.

I have not lived OSAS but I do believe that it neglects a heartfelt examination of our daily lives and a refelction on our sinfulness much like the Fruedian pychoanlysis that is essentially a running away from our fallen nature, rather than truly understanding it and getting to the root of our faults and failings, so that rather than being in bondage we can TRULY be FREED of our sins. These We can root out the things in the garden of our hearts that keeps us in bondage. It is not a negative thing as you might think to acknowledge that we sin and to reflect on those sins. Rather it is a great vehicle of freedom by which we come to acknoledge the abhorence of God to sin. (“God hates sin”) and how he has given us the grace through the sacraments to OVERCOME it. That is what God wants and why he gave us the sacraments, especially the Eucharist and confession to root out the sin in our lives. These are sacraments of mercy, not bondage by which God wants to free us from what truely limits our ability to do his will. Confession is good for the soul and Bishop Sheen lingers on that point. Psychoanlysis fails because of neglect of a heathy view of physchology, that acknowledges sin. It has been show that those who regularly attend confessoin actually have a much healthier life, with less physical problems, and a much smaller rate of suicide. This has evened out some over the last 20 or 30 years because of the neglect of the sacrament of confession in Catholic Churches. Something thta I hope is coming back and that JP II emphasized in the later years of his papacy. What a loving and kind God who truly wants to restore our fallen natures. There is much more that I should say scripturally on this but I will perhaps address that later. I highly recommend Bishop Sheen’s book which would help greatly in understanding why we Catholics cannot acknowledge the doctrine of OSAS and why we have such abhorence for it.

God bless


#2

Sorry, I’m going to need some background info here. What is OSAS?


#3

OSAS is once saved, always saved. It is a view that is held by some Protestants. Basically it says that once you make that commitement to Jesus, you’re in and you don’t ever have to worry about hell. Of course, I am simplifing it a bit.


#4

Great post, thess. (Thanks for the book recommendation.)

:thumbsup:


#5

OSAS is just another of those man-made Protestant fallacies. Protestantism is, by virtue of the fact that it is the product of men, based on human selfishness. Everything is free, if you just believe. (Faith). No devotion, no work, no justification, no charity… just have faith that the Lord will save you and it is as good as done.

Technically speaking, OSAS is true. When one’s name is read from the book of life after the judgement, one is saved and can never lose it. Protestantism simply applies it to the newly converted Christian here on earth. So, to answer your question, yes - Catholics should abhor it because it puts a person in the mindset that they do not need to do anything once they accept Christ.

  1. Do not seek after justification, merit, or righteousness - they are magically imputed (stolen) from Christ and bestowed upon the believer.
  2. Do not aspire to works of love and charity. (They will happen of their own accord.)
  3. Do not seek after saving grace. (Simply assume it has been given, no matter how bad your lifestyle.)
  4. Sin until the day you die. (OSAS)

Some have asked if Protestants will be saved. I used to believe so, because I know some who are very nice people. But then I figured that even in a pagan nation there are probably some very nice people. That’s when it hit me… “nice” has nothing to do with salvation.

There are two voices calling to those who would follow the Lord. One is from the shephard, and one is from man. The Shephard’s way requires dedication, devotion, self-denial, acceptance of one’s cross and persecution, etc. The man-made way is easy; just believe, say amen, and rake in an eternity of life and rewards.

The Lord says that His sheep know His voice. If Protestants knew His voice, they would not be Protestants.

Thal59


#6

Protestants have a saying, “Salvation is free, but it costs you your life.” This is actually a true statement, as once we receive the free gift of grace, Christ asks us to give ourselves completely to him. But OSAS Protestants often lose the reality of this truth over time, and salvation is taken for granted.

When I became a Catholic I discovered that I had really started to take my spiritual life for granted as a OSAS Protestant. Realizing that it is within the realm of possibility that I could step outside of grace really got my attention. What I love about the Catholic faith is it is so diagnostic. Through an deeper understanding of scriptures, theology, Church teaching, and conscience, we can gauge “where we are at” and take corrective steps, as necessary.

But the biggest reason we should educate people about the error of OSAS is because this doctrine may cost people their souls. It is very dangerous.


#7

[quote=Thal59]Some have asked if Protestants will be saved. I used to believe so, because I know some who are very nice people. But then I figured that even in a pagan nation there are probably some very nice people. That’s when it hit me… “nice” has nothing to do with salvation.

There are two voices calling to those who would follow the Lord. One is from the shephard, and one is from man. The Shephard’s way requires dedication, devotion, self-denial, acceptance of one’s cross and persecution, etc. The man-made way is easy; just believe, say amen, and rake in an eternity of life and rewards.

The Lord says that His sheep know His voice. If Protestants knew His voice, they would not be Protestants.
[/quote]

This is very harsh, uniformed, and judgmental. There are MANY Protestants that are saved and that take their walk with God very seriously. There are many Protestants that believe in OSAS that do not use that as license and still serve God selflessly. They aren’t attempting to be saved by niceness, but by the atoning work of Christ, just as we are saved.


#8

I’m not sure where I read it (it may even be Biblical – or who knows it may have been Protestant) but somewhere along the lines I got the impression that once you have converted (be ye transformed), you no longer have an inclination to sin seriously, and if you do, that means you never were converted to begin with. In other words, it’s a bit like OSAS except that the “once saved” part is an internal, permanent change and not just a ritual or emotional high experience or something.

Kind of like the Catholic view of marriage. Once you are bound to your spouse, it is forever – unless of course it wasn’t real. You may have ups and downs in the relationship, but it is never broken in this life.

Does anyone else know what I’m talking about? I’m not really sure where to look for more references.

Alan.


#9

[quote=petra]This is very harsh, uniformed, and judgmental. There are MANY Protestants that are saved and that take their walk with God very seriously. There are many Protestants that believe in OSAS that do not use that as license and still serve God selflessly. They aren’t attempting to be saved by niceness, but by the atoning work of Christ, just as we are saved.
[/quote]

Yes. It is very harsh and judgmental. I am not politically correct. I wish to speak out on important matters without sugar-coating anything. Many of the subjects debated on this board are too important to be dilluted with gentle expressions. I believe that too many times people on these forums “side-step” the truth in order to be inoffensive.

But I feel I can argue the term “uninformed.” I spend more time with Protestants and Non-Denominationals than I do with Catholics. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are many people outside of the RCC that I would have instantly nominated for salvation based on what I knew of their personality and their approach to Christianity. But as time has gone by, I have seen MANY Protestants and Non-Denominationals that I once thought highly of, say or do things that lead me to believe they are not in the spirit, or of the body.

There is ONE holy, Catholic, and apostolic church, Petra. There are many man-made denominations. The Lord has said that His sheep know His voice. If these people you have been quick to defend, Petra, are so devoted and serious about their relationship with God, then why do they NOT hear the Shephards voice? Why do they outright fight against His church and cling to their man-made one?

Thal59


#10

Thal59,

I highly suggest you read the following section in the CCC with a humble heart, knowing that a 2000 year old institution is far wiser than you.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#CATHOLIC

. Particularly:

**Wounds to unity **

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[272] 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]


#11

Getting back to the original question of this thread: “Why should Catholics abhor OSAS”, I would like to look at it from the aspect of what does OSAS tell us about God.

If OSAS were truly what God wanted for us, then he would be an unmitigated monster. He would want people to go on deceiving themselves about the state of their souls, letting them think that they can enter heaven without having been fully perfected in his love–that he just overlooks faults and sins instead of eradicating them and making us holy by working with us in our daily lives.

God would also violate his own virtue of hope because he would be saying that men cannot become holy as he is holy so he has to pretend they are now perfected for good and all and cannot change.

He would violate his love by letting us go on thinking we have already been sanctified by nothing more than a one time commitment to him, as if we could no longer go against his will and sin.

I could go on, but you get the drift. OSAS makes God into a liar and a fool when you boil it all down.


#12

[quote=Thal59]There is ONE holy, Catholic, and apostolic church, Petra. There are many man-made denominations. The Lord has said that His sheep know His voice. If these people you have been quick to defend, Petra, are so devoted and serious about their relationship with God, then why do they NOT hear the Shephards voice?
[/quote]

Because they haven’t heard the truth about the Catholic Chuch. But many of them are sincerely following the Lord with the limited knowledge that they have. They do hear the Shepherd’s voice to an extent, though not entirely accurately. Many of them are discovering the truth of the ONE holy, Catholic, and apostolic church and coming home. But it doesn’t happen overnight to everyone. Regardless of the experience you’ve had with some Protestants, many are sincere. Your blanket statement applied to all Protestants is not politically incorrect, it is simply incorrect.

When I was a Protestant, I was sincere. God worked in my life and I heard His voice and His guidance. I only had part of the picture, though. Once I discovered the Catholic Church, many things fell into place and I became much more attentive to my spiritual life. But I was never a licencious sinner. I was moral and have never even tried an illegal substance. Trying to live a life that made a difference to the world eternally was ever before me. I loved the Word, and had a heart for evangelism and apologetics, and I served in ministries to the poor and in prisons. As a OSAS Christian at the time, I followed Christ and tried to serve Him simply because I loved Him and my heart ached with the knowledge that people were perishing without Christ. Many other Protestants do the same. If you don’t know any, that does not mean that none exist.

What I found in my life, while a OSAS, was that it was easier to let dry times take over. I didn’t slip into licensiousness, but my spirituality was kind of flat at times. It was easier to neglect reading the Bible and let the cares of the day preoccupy me. Coming to an accurate understanding of salvation in the Church has made me much more attentive and enables me to diagnose where I’m at.

I agree with you completely that many people DO use OSAS as an excuse to sin. This is one of the scariest things about the doctrine. But many Protestants live exemplary lives and serve God out of love.


#13

[quote=petra]This is very harsh, uniformed, and judgmental. There are MANY Protestants that are saved and that take their walk with God very seriously. There are many Protestants that believe in OSAS that do not use that as license and still serve God selflessly. They aren’t attempting to be saved by niceness, but by the atoning work of Christ, just as we are saved.
[/quote]

No, Petra. We are not saved. To say you are saved is presumptious. Read the catechism my friend. And no it was not judgemental. You are only saved when you enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus, even said that those who persevere to the end are saved.


#14

[quote=Thal59] OSAS is just another of those man-made Protestant fallacies. Protestantism is, by virtue of the fact that it is the product of men, based on human selfishness. Everything is free, if you just believe. (Faith). No devotion, no work, no justification, no charity… just have faith that the Lord will save you and it is as good as done.
[/quote]

This is written by Peter, whom you call your first Pope. Peter’s language is very clear. Once you are saved by God, you are always saved by God. The reason you won’t believe is, I believe, twofold:

  1. You have been taught that you cannot be assured.
  2. Even though you say you cannot obtain salvation by works, in your heart you believe that you are responsible for working for/meriting your salvation.

On the other hand, Peter (and the other apostles as well) trust in God, who has the power (v5), to save you once and forever. Scripture is very clear that salvation is ***from the creator ***(God); it is not from the creature. Therefore, OSAS is put forth by the apostles.

1 Peter 1:1-9
1 *Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, *who are chosen ***
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood
: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. *
3 ***Blessed be the God and Father ****of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, *
4 **to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, **
5 ***who are protected by the power of God **through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, *
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; *
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him
, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
*
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


#15

[quote=thessalonian]Thal59,

I highly suggest you read the following section in the CCC with a humble heart, knowing that a 2000 year old institution is far wiser than you.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#CATHOLIC

. Particularly:

**Wounds to unity **

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[272] 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]
[/quote]

Thessalonian:

Please read the info that you yourself have provided. May I suggest that you look for any referrence to Protestantism. The separated bretheren being spoken about refers to the Orthodox Catholics of the first schism…

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323] With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”[324]

Everything you have provided makes perfect sense in relation to those “other” Catholics, whose heirarchy follows the apostolic succession…

833 The phrase “particular church,” which is the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful **in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.**313] These particular Churches “are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists.”[314]

I understand how one may wish to apply this to all in schism, but one must take the writing a bit out of context to make the accomodation. But the inescapable point for me is that to apply this to Protestant churches, which have NO valid authority outside of the apostolic succession, is to say one may be in schism, and perhaps even have animosity for His church, (which is the mystical body of Christ) and yet somehow still be a part of that body which they hate. This makes no tangible sense.

One is either a part of the body, or is apart from the body. There is no in-between.

Thal59


#16

With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”[324]

Everything you have provided makes perfect sense in relation to those “other” Catholics, whose heirarchy follows the apostolic succession… thal59

No, this does NOT not prove what you are saying here. It is obvious that a new sentence has been started to clearly show that Orthodox Churches are the closest to Catholic of all the Christian bodies. It does NOT say that Christian bodies apart from the Orthodox are not Christian. Don’t take phrases out of context–that’s a Protestant game Catholics shouldn’t want to play.


#17

[quote=Thal59]Thessalonian:

Please read the info that you yourself have provided. May I suggest that you look for any referrence to Protestantism. The separated bretheren being spoken about refers to the Orthodox Catholics of the first schism…

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323] With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”[324]

Everything you have provided makes perfect sense in relation to those “other” Catholics, whose heirarchy follows the apostolic succession…

833 The phrase “particular church,” which is the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful **in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.**313] These particular Churches “are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists.”[314]

I understand how one may wish to apply this to all in schism, but one must take the writing a bit out of context to make the accomodation. But the inescapable point for me is that to apply this to Protestant churches, which have NO valid authority outside of the apostolic succession, is to say one may be in schism, and perhaps even have animosity for His church, (which is the mystical body of Christ) and yet somehow still be a part of that body which they hate. This makes no tangible sense.

One is either a part of the body, or is apart from the body. There is no in-between.

Thal59
[/quote]

Thal,
:nope:
Are we reading the same Catechism. :confused: Actuall yes we are but you are reading your thoughts in to it. It simply cannot be understood the way you are reading it.
First of all I didn’t give you paragraph 833, but that’s okay. It continues my point rather than refuting it as you claim.
It says “those baptized” that includes Protestants. It says that those who are Orthodox are more profoundly joined as a subcategory of those baptized. They are closer to us than the rest of the baptized. The orthodox are in schism. They reject the papacy. That is what schism is all about. If they are not in schism what are they in? I suggest you get a Catholic dictionary out and read the paragraphs presented. Pray and I will pray for you. Then come back and we’ll talk some more. You are grossly misinterpruting what the Catechism says. I am sorry if that is blunt.

Blessings to you


#18

“Everything you have provided makes perfect sense in relation to those “other” Catholics, whose heirarchy follows the apostolic succession…”

Orthodox are not Catholic. They are Orthodox. They reject the papacy among other things. They are schismatic.

“One is either a part of the body, or is apart from the body. There is no in-between.”

Therefore they are in-between and you are not making any sense.

God bless


#19

Maybe because the Church has so many bushels covered her light, that everytime they looked the shepherds voice was distorted.

Alan


#20

OSAS is a false teaching. The faith that saves is the faith that continues to abide in the works of Christ and continuously receiving the forgiveness of our sins. If Jesus forgave all our sins, past, present and future at the moment we believed on Jesus willy nilly, then there would be no need to repent of any future sins we commit. Also why go to a priest and in penance and seek absolution?

                            But the biggest factor is, that even up until we draw our last breath, we sin either in thought,  word or deed. We die in sin, whether unconfessed venial sin or even with mortal sin. And God says no unclean thing can enter heaven. Or to put it another way, without holiness, NO MAN can see God. 

                             So after death our souls must be purged of all remaining sin, before we can enter heaven. We will be purged depending how long God purges us by fire. Both Gregory and St Austine taught these solemn truths. To repeat, OSAS, is a outright lie. The Catholic faith and church tradition does not teach this.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.