Why starting with the state of the dead works for Jehovah's Witness and Mormons

Let’s face it, no one wants to believe that someone they love is in or is going to Hell. So, playing on these emotions is why I think those in cults starts the conversation with the state of the dead. For people who have no doubt about where they are going and where their love ones are or are going, this approach has very little appeal. But, for those who are not sure…

Options for State of dead:

Heaven exists and God’s Righteous goes there (either in the ground, on earth or spiritual realm).

All go to heaven – Universalist, one can live life anyway they please.

Hell does not exist – again, how one lives their life really does not matter.

Wicked are destroyed – no consequences really, one simply ceases to exist.

Hell is just in our imagination, again, outside one can look good, but can do what they please.

Hell exists — God will wipe away tears, burn off our sins/errors because we all know we are not perfect.

Some “wicked, good people”??? (not sure of right term here) will make it to heaven via invincible ignorance.

Multiple heavens, based on how faithful one is to Mormonism.

Am I overlooking other options?

Am I on to something here? As to why Jehovah’s Witnesses starts their sales pitch on emotional grounds of where loves ones are after they died? I hear that they read the obituaries and use them to make contact with those who recently lost someone. Is this true?

My own (humble) opinion: I do not believe that any living human being knows for sure what happens when we die. We can only have faith in what our religion has taught us. I am Catholic because it is the original religion that follows Jesus. But as far as the specifics as to life after death… I just don’t know.

One you missed is the Bible teaching of The Resurrection which the Jews and early Christians believed! :slight_smile:

Daniel was told he would “go to your rest and stand up again at the end of the days” (Dan 12:13)
When Jesus told Martha Lazarus would rise, she immediately thought of this hope and replied: “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:24)
After all, Jesus taught this too: at John 5:28, 29 he said: “The hour is coming in which all those in the (graves) will come out… to a resurrection…”
And he refered to the state of death as “rest” and “Sleep” at John11:11-14.
At Acts 24:15 Paul said: “There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.”
And Revelation shows (in symbolic language) this resurrection happening. (Rev 20:12)

That is what JW’s teach, and have a lot of Bible evidence to back it up. :thumbsup:
It relieves many peoples fears that their loved ones are suffering or scared. They are simply “asleep” awaiting the resurrection when the Kingdom rules the earth. (Matt 6:9,10)

I have never heard of this. We certainly are not encouraged to do that (and I think one would have to be extremely tactful if they did)

I have heard of JW’s who called on someone while preaching, who said their had been a death in the family. The JW’s apologised and left, but returned a few days later to check on the person and (if appropriate) leave some Bible literature on the hope for the dead. That is often really appreciated. :wink:

We know for sure that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and anyone dying in a state of grace is immediately saved (either straight to Heaven or Purgatory first).
How do we know? Because they are infallible teachings of the Church. That means we can be 100% sure about these teachings.

Yes, I meant the specifics - such as the specifics of what hell or heaven consists of.

JWs do write letters to families of the deceased they find in the obituaries. They are usually JWs that cannot get around because of disabilities. And it is one of there conversation starters for sure. They might come to your door and ask, “Do you ever wonder what happens to us when we die?” And then spew ideas that they have learned from men in New York in the last 100 years, with complete disregard for the teachings of Christ through the Bible and the Church. For this reason they are dangerous and harmful to untaught Christians. I know these things for a fact since I used to use this very same conversation starter when I was a JW. The funny thing is that they teach that their leaders, the governing body, are anointed and part of the 144,000 that really do go to Heaven when they die. They will purposely withhold this information to householders because they have zero confidence that you are one of the anointed. (Just as Logically has done.) They have no idea what Heaven is, the resurrection, or God for that matter. They think Heaven and Earth have to be completely separate in the future. The refuse to educate themselves about what the Church has taught on these matters for 2,000 years, but are convinced by their watchtower magazines. It makes me very sad to still have family controlled by these men.

I also have zero confidence that I am of the 144,000. (as do 99% of JW’s) :wink:

But we don’t “withhold this information” about the heavenly hope some have. Here it is on our public website:

This single 750 word article lists 45 scriptures as evidence. (In contrast, the 3000 word cetishisim on the Trinity mentioned 4 )
How can you be so sure that a group that uses the Bible so extensively have no idea about it’s major themes? :confused:

Greetings Logically,
Wow! this sounds like an admission from a JW that their is actual evidence in the bible for the Trinity or are these references you speak of just polemical? The answer cuts both ways…

And if statistics are that important to you then why would you not include the rest of the original 73 book canon in your stats. I’m sure you could raise the 45 references quite a bit. :thumbsup:


It looks like what I said went right over your head. I was not saying that you have any confidence that you are one of the 144,000, I was saying that all your false reasoning goes against the other teaching you have that your governing body does in fact die and go to heaven. You go to lengths to convince people that they do not die and “go” to heaven, so you obviously withhold that information when convincing them that they and their family will not die and “go” to heaven. I also know that it is not hidden information, I said you withhold this information to householders, meaning you don’t bring this up in the first few visits if at all possible because it works against your plan to convince them that they are definitely not part of the 144,000. Your real message whether you realize it or not is not to convince anyone about whether we can die and “go” to heaven, but rather that they really could not be part of the anointed, body of Christ, born again, Christians, but rather benefit from the 144,000’s relationship with “Jehovah”. If you are wrong, and most are convinced that you are, you are actively trying to rip apart the body of Christ by telling them that they are not to be with Christ in Heaven.

As to your second point, a Satanic person could quote the Bible 100,000 times in a book. It seems you would trust him more than your governing body based solely on how much he quotes scripture. Please read St Augustine, St John Chrysostom, and St Basil about all your “hot” topics, you will see hundreds of references to scripture. newadvent.org

I think the resurrected body of Christians is said to be indestructible in I Cor 15.
sheep and goats are made up of the same basic materials, therefore it makes sense that both believers and wicked bodies would be made up of the same materials since someone standing next to another person at the judgement will not be able to distinguish their body make up from the others — an indestructible body in pain…Matt 25:46 the word for eternal for both eternal life and eternal punishment is the same, if you limit one you must limit the other too.

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