Why the lack of Tridentine Mass?

Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?

[quote=Lurch104]Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?
[/quote]

Try here…
traditio.com/nat.htm

Understand that not all of these are approved. However, I attended a local “Independent Church” as an observer only. I have to say it was beautiful and made me want to attend the Indult once our Diocese put it in.

I don’t know how far you are from Pittsburgh, but St. Boniface’s is a great place to attend the TLM:

pittsburghlatinmass.org

I just attended my first ever TLM there two weeks ago. It was absolutely wonderful! I highly recommend it!

[quote=Scotty PGH]I don’t know how far you are from Pittsburgh, but St. Boniface’s is a great place to attend the TLM:

pittsburghlatinmass.org

I just attended my first ever TLM there two weeks ago. It was absolutely wonderful! I highly recommend it!
[/quote]

Did they ever pave the parking lot?

[quote=TNT]Did they ever pave the parking lot?
[/quote]

Nope.

Pardon me, but I think this question will fit into this thread. So may I ask what happened back just after Vatican II? I believe the majority of Catholics are like me. They do not know why one day the priest switched from the traditional Latin Mass to an English Mass.

I don’t know for sure, but I have heard that Rome sent letters to the Bishops that said they could now say Mass in the language of the country. Rome didn’t say the Tridentine Mass was forbidden. But the US Bishops went “overboard” and misinterpreted the directives from Rome and practically eliminated TLM. To the shock of most parrishioners.

What is the true story. What happened? How did the English Mass arise?

[quote=Lurch104]Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?
[/quote]

I can tell you that my bishop Sylvester Ryan of Monterey, California or “Sil” (as he enjoys being called) feels that allowing the indult would nourish a very devisive element within the diocese.

To some degree he is probably right. Most Tridentine Masses are celebrated in smaller chapels and draw from a large chunk of the arch(dioceses.) This tends to breed a certain type of “bunker mentality” and isolation that is most unfortunate. It would be far healthier if a great many parishes simply had an extra Mass each Sunday – a Tridentine Mass, but the demand does not appear to exist.

To some degree Sil’s position exacerbates the problem by giving the Tridentine Mass an artificial mystique. I think there is also the issue of a shortage of priests. It would be difficult to have priests celebrate a Tridentine Mass if only 50 people showed-up on busy Sundays.

Instead, locals attend a wonderful little Ruthenian/Byzantine Catholic parish. More than 90% of the members are disenfranchised Roman Catholics, that attend from a radius of more than 50 miles. There is still a bit of the aforementioned “bunker metality” at this small parish, but the pastor is so wonderful (and able), that he keeps things very positive.

One positive fruit of not allowing the indult is that it has allowed this wonderful Eastern Catholic parish to begin and florish in our local community.

Lurch

The real question is, why in 1970, was the new mass even introduced (OK, I could possibly accept that) and the Old Mass BANNED. Actually banned like it was bad for your soul, your health, going to give you Cancer, send you straight to hell. The Mass that we and millions like us loved and used for centuries, wit roots back to the 3rd century and later the 6th. My mother told me the day they introduced the new mass, people went the next week to mass, and little by little, with the changing of the sacrements to boot, just stopped going to Mass, first my Grandmother, then our Aunts, uncles, they felt nothing “mysterious or glorius” in this new mass, Like a movie where the plot line and ending are all there for you to see, no mystique to keep you in the seats. Poor excuse for not going to mass I must say, but people after 1970, and the statistics prove this out, no longer feel that going to mass and receiving sacrments gets you to heaven, They rationalize with me now, and I argue with them at every holiday dinner that if they Pope, and Vatican II says that we all worship the same God and that one religion is essentially is as good as another, as long as they are “Good People” they will go to heaven.

And the TLM was only allowed back in 1988, and limited, like in our diocese it is in ONE church out of 130. Far away where we go, and I admit I sometimes sneak to the TLM at that schismatic place which I will not mention as it is closer and dont want to deal with the Love fest at the local Novus ordo, want to hear a real sermon. The church had an agenda in the 60’s and 70’s and still does, they were hoping that the oldies who loved the TLM would die off, but it is actually the 30-50 year olds who know enough about religion, are educated and are now asking the questions and did not grow up in the 60’s and 70’s Love fest flower power environment that are demanding the TLM and traditions to be restored.

[quote=Lurch104]Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?
[/quote]

[quote=Scotty PGH]I don’t know how far you are from Pittsburgh, but St. Boniface’s is a great place to attend the TLM:

pittsburghlatinmass.org

I just attended my first ever TLM there two weeks ago. It was absolutely wonderful! I highly recommend it!
[/quote]

I am just about 4 hours away (Harrisburg) so it is not really practical. However, during the week I travel to Pittsburgh quite a bit. I generally stay at the Hilton downtown and attend St. Marys for morning mass.

[quote=netmilsmom]Try here…
traditio.com/nat.htm

Understand that not all of these are approved. However, I attended a local “Independent Church” as an observer only. I have to say it was beautiful and made me want to attend the Indult once our Diocese put it in.
[/quote]

Thank you for the link! I think the Baltimore parish is the closest to me (other than a High School down the road).

St. Alphonsus Church
114 Saratoga St., Baltimore, MD 21201
Msgr. Arthur Bastress, (410) 685-6090
Diocese, SU 11:30 am (1st/3rd Cantata), Holydays 7 pm

I do believe that a road trip is in order.

[quote=Scotty PGH]I don’t know how far you are from Pittsburgh, but St. Boniface’s is a great place to attend the TLM:

pittsburghlatinmass.org

I just attended my first ever TLM there two weeks ago. It was absolutely wonderful! I highly recommend it!
[/quote]

Yes it is a great place. I have been there several times. The last time I was there was on Christmas day. It is beautiful.

[quote=Lurch104]Hello All,

After reading another thread on the N.O. Vs Tridentine mass and Indults, I was wondering why some bishops will not issue an indult? Or, why the limited Tridentine masses? I understand that it is the bishop’s right entirely not to grant an indult, but I can’t for the life of me understand why he would not liberaly issue the indults (assuming priests properly trained in the rite). Am I missing something? What is the downside if some prefer the pre-VII mass?

I myself have never attended a Tridentine mass, but would welcome the oppurtunity. Here in Central PA, we do have the mass once per month, but it is in a local high school. I guess that is why I am waiting. I want my first experience to be in a real church, preferably an older gothic style. I have read that in Baltimore, I may be able to find such a service, any thoughts? Any pointers for a neophyte to this service?
[/quote]

I go to Penn State. I have spoken to some preasts around here that have wanted to say the TLM. The bishop is completely opposed to it. He will not allow anyone to say it in the diocese. I don’t understand why they would be so deadset against it. It was the only mass there was for several hundred years.

[quote=Matthaeus]I can tell you that my bishop Sylvester Ryan of Monterey, California or “Sil” (as he enjoys being called) feels that allowing the indult would nourish a very devisive element within the diocese.

To some degree he is probably right. Most Tridentine Masses are celebrated in smaller chapels and draw from a large chunk of the arch(dioceses.) This tends to breed a certain type of “bunker mentality” and isolation that is most unfortunate. It would be far healthier if a great many parishes simply had an extra Mass each Sunday – a Tridentine Mass, but the demand does not appear to exist.

To some degree Sil’s position exacerbates the problem by giving the Tridentine Mass an artificial mystique. I think there is also the issue of a shortage of priests. It would be difficult to have priests celebrate a Tridentine Mass if only 50 people showed-up on busy Sundays.

Instead, locals attend a wonderful little Ruthenian/Byzantine Catholic parish. More than 90% of the members are disenfranchised Roman Catholics, that attend from a radius of more than 50 miles. There is still a bit of the aforementioned “bunker metality” at this small parish, but the pastor is so wonderful (and able), that he keeps things very positive.

One positive fruit of not allowing the indult is that it has allowed this wonderful Eastern Catholic parish to begin and florish in our local community.
[/quote]

I attend a Tridentine Indult about once or twice a month. I drive 50 miles. Fortunately, my Bishop, the archbishop Beltrane (I hope I spelled his excellenc’ss name correctly) of the archdiocese of Oklahoma City permits the Tridentine Rite at St. Michael’s Church in Oklahoma City. Our Chapel is serviced by the FSSP and I do not observe this “bunker” mentality at all. We hear the same messages at Mass from the Archbishop that all other parishes in the Diocese hear. Our Church has three Masses on Sunday (Two Low masses and one High Mass Chanted) as well weekday masses. The masses are full with people standing in the vestibule. There are few older people that attend. However, despite what progressives may hope for, the vast majority of the laity at St. Micheal’s in attendance are Young adults and children. This fact was not lost on my somewhat curious but confirmed Protestant family members who came once to St. Michael’s to see what the “old mass” was really like…

The TLM is not promoted by the Bishops because it interferes with the agenda - They are not happy that they have made things progressive and NOW the people want to go back to the ancient! - If you went to all the work to change something and then people started demanded things to go back - how happy would you be! The Bishops are not pleased!

If you want a TLM Mass in your area - bring in the SSPX or some Sedevancantist group and you will have an indult quicker than you can blink an eye! Because that is were you find the Indult Mass - were the other groups are strong and growing! They only allow them when they are fighting off the others

[quote=Lurch104]I am just about 4 hours away (Harrisburg) so it is not really practical. However, during the week I travel to Pittsburgh quite a bit. I generally stay at the Hilton downtown and attend St. Marys for morning mass.
[/quote]

You might want to try www.latinmass.org As far as I know, these are all indults and there is one in Harrisburg. I’d stay away from Tradtio.

[quote=Rara Avis]The TLM is not promoted by the Bishops because it interferes with the agenda - They are not happy that they have made things progressive and NOW the people want to go back to the ancient! - If you went to all the work to change something and then people started demanded things to go back - how happy would you be! The Bishops are not pleased!

If you want a TLM Mass in your area - bring in the SSPX or some Sedevancantist group and you will have an indult quicker than you can blink an eye! Because that is were you find the Indult Mass - were the other groups are strong and growing! They only allow them when they are fighting off the others
[/quote]

Sorry, we have an indult mass and the only 1 sedevacanist Church with a VERY sparse population. No SSPX in sight in our diocese.

[quote=bear06]Sorry, we have an indult mass and the only 1 sedevacanist Church with a VERY sparse population. No SSPX in sight in our diocese.
[/quote]

Sorry I shouldn’t have used the words - strong and growing … you are right - it only takes on sparse sedevancanist group to send the running … this I know from experience.

If I were you I would pray that that sparse group never falls apart because if it does … good bye Indult

That is an easy question, because they are scared of it and all that it promotes. I have done benediction at a schismatic church with my family who attend there, and they go through all of the Prayers from the little blue book "Devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, published in 1926, and there are prayers that are totally against the Modernistic mind set, like the prayer "Consecration of the Human Race to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus ordered by Pope Pius XI, in which we pray “be Thou King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolatry or of Islamism and refuse not to draw them all into the light and kingdom of God. Turn Thine eyes of mercy toward the children of that race, Once Thy chosen people, of Old they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Savior; may it now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life”…

I have done benediction at my local Novus Ordo Parish and it is bland and we never pray any of these prayers, especially for conversion of idol worshippers such as the Buddhists and the Hindus, and the darkness of Islam and prayers for conversion for the Jews. You would be hung up from the rafters, We used to be in he business of conversions and saving souls, we are now into this One World religion and all can get to heaven. Look at the desecration at Fatima, it was only due to the outrage by the St Pius X group that this stopped, but will start again I am sure as that is the intention of the new Church there when it is completed in 2007, to be an ecumenical meeting center for all religions to worship.

[quote=jimmy]I go to Penn State. I have spoken to some preasts around here that have wanted to say the TLM. The bishop is completely opposed to it. He will not allow anyone to say it in the diocese. I don’t understand why they would be so deadset against it. It was the only mass there was for several hundred years.
[/quote]

[quote=Rara Avis]Sorry I shouldn’t have used the words - strong and growing … you are right - it only takes on sparse sedevancanist group to send the running … this I know from experience.

If I were you I would pray that that sparse group never falls apart because if it does … good bye Indult
[/quote]

The group is sparse because nobody really knows about them. Believe me, they are not sending anyone running. They don’t even make a lot of noise in their little corner of the world. The only reason I know about them is because I came across them in the phone book and called them to see if they were a schismatic Church.

We have our indult because our former pastor was an obedient man who went to our very liberal bishop and asked if he could first do the Pauline Mass in Latin to see if there was an interest. When he proved there was, he then went on to show he had an interest in the Indult. He never went in demanding that he be given the Indult and he, although I’m sure it was very hard, didn’t lambast the bishop for existing as some do.

Originally Posted by bear06
Sorry, we have an indult mass and the only 1 sedevacanist Church with a VERY sparse population. No SSPX in sight in our diocese.

With all due respect, your parish or diocese is not the worldwide or even USA example.

I know, it was one of those many coincidences that the Indult via Ecclesia Dei popped out of the VAT. within moments of the SSPX consecrating bishops.

The bishops, for the most part worldwide still refused to allow the indult UNTIL they saw the proliferation of the SSPX into their doceses, beginning with France. If one is in the SSPX, the diocese gets no part of the collections!
Even VatII bishops are practical when it comes to hard Money.
BTW:
The reason that the independent TLM’s are not as prolific is that there are serious doubts on ordination validity. I’ve heard that countless times from SSPX and Indult members. For the most part, the ceritude is weak.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.