Why was John XXIII's apostolic constitution on the study of latin ignored?

Veterum Sapientia by John XXIII forcibly demonstrates that Latin has a primacy of place in the catholic church above the vernacular languages

But amid this variety of languages a primary place must surely be given to that language which had its origins in Latium, and later proved so admirable a means for the spreading of Christianity throughout the West.

my question is why has the post concilliar church by in large forgotten what John XXIII has written? why has latin been nearly completely abolished from our liturgies and from all catholic formation in large?

And We also, impelled by the weightiest of reasons – the same as those which prompted Our Predecessors and provincial synods 13 – are fully determined to restore this language to its position of honor, and to do all We can to promote its study and use.ensure that the ancient and uninterrupted use of Latin be maintained and, where necessary, restored.

[quote=oat soda]Veterum Sapientia by John XXIII forcibly demonstrates that Latin has a primacy of place in the catholic church above the vernacular languages my question is why has the post concilliar church by in large forgotten what John XXIII has written? why has latin been nearly completely abolished from our liturgies and from all catholic formation in large?
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Because if seminarians and people were to learn latin, they might learn how fluffy the translations are. Thanks to people like Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, writing WDPRS (what does the prayer really say) along with some great leaders in our Church today who have been pushing for translations to be fixed, we wouldn’t know how bad it is. And, thank God for the internet.

I think part of it is a “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” culture about Church documents. By this I mean that when confronted with the plain text of Church documents, I’ve heard priests and seminarians assert that they know what was “really meant” or what the Church “really wants done.”

In a college course I was exposed for the first time to Sacrosanctum Concilium. I expressed surprise that I didn’t think the Mass we had now was what the Council had called for (which, as any literate person can see, is in certain areas quite true). A seminarian classmate informed me, however, that “the Council just had to word things that way to appease conservatives. Everyone knows that they really intended, though, to get what we have now.” That translates into, “Even when the Church speaks clearly, we know that if we all band together and ignore or disobey her nothing will be done; plus, we disobedient ones are in the majority over here, so people will tend to believe us over some hard to understand document, even when we misrepresent things.”

I personally think it’s rather pathetic that Latin is in such disuse. But I’m not in charge of educating our clerics, so I’ve not been able to do anything about it other than start trying to learn it myself.

One of the differences between Americans and Europeans that I have never understood is that people from Europe are proud to be able to converse in and read several languages while Americans seem to have an attitude that they need to know only one language and that everyone else should be able to speak and understand it. I suppose Latin got the same treatment in the US, but if the news out of the recent synod was correct even many Bishops have lost or never had the Latin touch.
Not a few American businesses found to their chagrin that when business went international that English only labeling wasn’t good enough. One characteristic of Americans, and it is obvious even with our government, is that we think everyone else should make allowances for us.

[quote=rwoehmke]One of the differences between Americans and Europeans that I have never understood is that people from Europe are proud to be able to converse in and read several languages while Americans seem to have an attitude that they need to know only one language and that everyone else should be able to speak and understand it. I suppose Latin got the same treatment in the US, but if the news out of the recent synod was correct even many Bishops have lost or never had the Latin touch.
Not a few American businesses found to their chagrin that when business went international that English only labeling wasn’t good enough. One characteristic of Americans, and it is obvious even with our government, is that we think everyone else should make allowances for us.
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rwoehmke:

But even most of the Europeans have forgotten Latin. Most of them couldn’t speak conversationally in Latin during the recesses! So, It’s not just the Americans.

It seems as if Pope Benedict XVI is a One-Man-Campaign for the Latin Language. I think he needs to do with Latin what the Israelis did with Hebrew. and make Latin a language for general use within the Church.

Nothing would serve to revive Latin better than to have the better part of 1 billion Catholics speaking it.

In Christ, Michael

[font=Times New Roman, Times, Arial][size=3]It will be quite clear from these considerations why the Roman Pontiffs have so often extolled the excellence and importance of Latin, and why they have prescribed its study and use by the secular and regular clergy, forecasting the dangers that would result from its neglect

. i think we are seeing the effects of the neglect of latin in the church. the translations in mass are for the most part done poorly. i think a chimpanzee could probably render a more accurate translation. now documents promulgated at the vatican have to be translated into latin from original vernacular source, and then translated to the various vernacular languages. this process takes an undo amount of time and allows for ambiguous and misleading translations.[/size][/font]

clearly, the church has strayed from its traditions. the church in embracing the world has become a little too worldy instead of being the light to nations. it’s a travesty that the church has neglected this and so many other important documents of the church as if after VII, the church isn’t the same church as it was 100 years ago. this is what B16 called the [font=Times New Roman]hermeneutics of discontinuity.[/font]

[quote=Traditional Ang]rwoehmke:

But even most of the Europeans have forgotten Latin. Most of them couldn’t speak conversationally in Latin during the recesses! So, It’s not just the Americans.

It seems as if Pope Benedict XVI is a One-Man-Campaign for the Latin Language. I think he needs to do with Latin what the Israelis did with Hebrew. and make Latin a language for general use within the Church.

Nothing would serve to revive Latin better than to have the better part of 1 billion Catholics speaking it.

In Christ, Michael
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ATM machines in the Vatican use Latin. :smiley:

[quote=mercygate]ATM machines in the Vatican use Latin. :smiley:
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Mercygate:

That’s only part of what I’m talking about…

I would love nothing better than to have ordinary Catholics become fluent enough in Latin that it could be used the same way the US used the Navajo language in WW II, as the basis for a code, during the upcoming persecutions - to be able to communicate quickly without without our enemies understanding us.

Now, that would be awsume, and lifesaving!

In Christ, Michael

Just as a point of interest, in California all priests must be fluent in two languages, English and one other, usually Spanish, in order to be ordained. Because of our large Hispanic population it is necessry that the priests be able to communicate with people who may not speak, or be comfortable with, English. As a result, there is little or no time for Latin to be added to the curriculum.

To suggest that this is so they won’t know the real prayers is to make an uneducated guess where there is no evidence to support such a claim. I had the benefit of four years of Latin in High School plus Greek and Hebrew in graduate school and German in college. I don’t think there’s an American thing about knowing only one language operative here (although there certainly is in the general population). I made an effort when living in Europe to speak the language of the people regardless of where I was (with the exception of Greece where my ancient Greek was not understood by modern Greeks – even though I could read menus and newspapers).

Deacon Ed

[quote=Deacon Ed]Just as a point of interest, in California all priests must be fluent in two languages, English and one other, usually Spanish, in order to be ordained. Because of our large Hispanic population it is necessry that the priests be able to communicate with people who may not speak, or be comfortable with, English. As a result, there is little or no time for Latin to be added to the curriculum.

To suggest that this is so they won’t know the real prayers is to make an uneducated guess where there is no evidence to support such a claim. I had the benefit of four years of Latin in High School plus Greek and Hebrew in graduate school and German in college. I don’t think there’s an American thing about knowing only one language operative here (although there certainly is in the general population). I made an effort when living in Europe to speak the language of the people regardless of where I was (with the exception of Greece where my ancient Greek was not understood by modern Greeks – even though I could read menus and newspapers). :stuck_out_tongue:

Deacon Ed
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Deacon Ed:

I know a priest who reads Latin poets for pleasure, Greek playrights for a challenge and speaks Spanish, among other languages (he’s from Texas).

I know a former SSPX priest (now regularized) who is fluent in Latin, Spanish and English, and those are the languages I know about.

And, then there’s the TAC Bishop of Central America is Fluent inn Spanish, Latin and Koene Greek (No English, and my Spanish is mediocre at best - you should see the two of us trying to talk).

My Father Was fluent in English and Spanish and had a working knowledge of French, German and Koene Greek. And, my father-in-law from my first marriage was fluent in English, German, Modern Greek, Latin and Spanish.

And the list goes on fro there…

And the guys at the Seminary can’t learn Latin? Are you saying the guys I knew and know are smarter than the ones going through the Seminary?

Latin is the official language of the Church! If the guys I knew/know could learn the languages they knew, the seminarians could learn both Latin and Spanish.

In Christ, Michael

[quote=Traditional Ang]And the guys at the Seminary can’t learn Latin? Are you saying the guys I knew and know are smarter than the ones going through the Seminary?

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If he is going to study or work in Rome for any length of time he will have to learn both Latin and Italian.

[quote=Deacon Ed] I made an effort when living in Europe to speak the language of the people regardless of where I was (with the exception of Greece where **my ancient Greek was not understood by modern Greeks **-- even though I could read menus and newspapers).

Deacon Ed
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:rotfl: Waiters would look at me like I was speaking Chinese when I would address them in perfectly clear fourth century Greek! My husband said they thought I was asking for Holy Communion!

[quote=Traditional Ang]Deacon Ed:

I know a priest who reads Latin poets for pleasure, Greek playrights for a challenge and speaks Spanish, among other languages (he’s from Texas).

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Ditto my mentor (now a bishop in the continuing Anglican movement. He stopped reading the lessons for morning and evening prayer in Latin because it was “too easy” and went over to Greek. Sometimes he goes back to the Latin just to keep it fresh. When I was an Episcopalian, praying the Daily Office privately, I used a special book that had the offices in Latin and Greek.

When a seminary classmate of mine, still an Episcopal priest, prays his daily Office privately, he uses the Latin edition of the Liturgy of the Hours.

[quote=Deacon Ed]Just as a point of interest, in California all priests must be fluent in two languages, English and one other, usually Spanish, in order to be ordained. Because of our large Hispanic population it is necessry that the priests be able to communicate with people who may not speak, or be comfortable with, English. As a result, there is little or no time for Latin to be added to the curriculum.

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I have never agreed with this proposition. In fact most of the seminarians of my Archdiocese feel that they should not have to learn Spanish but that the Mexicans should have to learn English and we as the Church should provide free classes for them so they can be succeessful - however this is a different discussion.

I also don’t agree that there is not enough time in the curriculum to teach Latin. First of all it is mandated by Canon Law, second I had enough time for Latin, Greek and Spanish. A Seminarian tha does not make time to do these things is just being lazy.

[quote=mosher]I also don’t agree that there is not enough time in the curriculum to teach Latin. First of all it is mandated by Canon Law, second I had enough time for Latin, Greek and Spanish. A Seminarian tha does not make time to do these things is just being lazy.
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A Seminarian that does not make time to do these things is just being lazy.

I had to repeat it. a Seminarian does not make time, he is given a set of classes he must complete in a set period of time. From my experience, just enrolling in my classes to finish my bachelors degree and prepare me for the seminary, it is not easy to add classes.

If more Latin is required then Seminarians will do it, but what will be removed to make room for it?

[quote=mosher]I have never agreed with this proposition. In fact most of the seminarians of my Archdiocese feel that they should not have to learn Spanish but that the Mexicans should have to learn English and we as the Church should provide free classes for them so they can be succeessful - however this is a different discussion.

I also don’t agree that there is not enough time in the curriculum to teach Latin. First of all it is mandated by Canon Law, second I had enough time for Latin, Greek and Spanish. A Seminarian tha does not make time to do these things is just being lazy.
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Let’s hope Archbishop Sheehan helps them to see the errors of their opinions regarding Spanish. As long as we have a strong economy, there are going to be jobs (and here in Las Vegas, LOTS of jobs) that will not be done by Anglos or anyone else who can get out of doing them. Thus, we will more than likely always have Spanish speaking workers, either legal or illegal. They deserve to have their spiritual needs seen to, esp. in the area of confession and catechesis. Spanish in the Southwest is a reality and prospective priests who cannot deal with it need to get themselves to a diocese that has little danger of needing it.

That said, I personally think we should require MORE of seminarians, not less, in formation as well as academics, so I suppose we should give them MORE time, as well.

[quote=ByzCath]“A Seminarian that does not make time to do these things is just being lazy.

I had to repeat it. a Seminarian does not make time, he is given a set of classes he must complete in a set period of time. From my experience, just enrolling in my classes to finish my bachelors degree and prepare me for the seminary, it is not easy to add classes.

If more Latin is required then Seminarians will do it, but what will be removed to make room for it?
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True but there is plenty of opportunity to take other classes. My first two years at the seminary I was taking 22 credit hours plus I spent one summer at the Seminary taking more classes. Of course 22 hourse is a lot but I still had plenty of time to fulfill all my other obligations. On average a seminarian takes 15 credit hours a semseter. If he were to take one more class a semseter he would have plenty of time.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Let’s hope Archbishop Sheehan helps them to see the errors of their opinions regarding Spanish. As long as we have a strong economy, there are going to be jobs (and here in Las Vegas, LOTS of jobs) that will not be done by Anglos or anyone else who can get out of doing them. Thus, we will more than likely always have Spanish speaking workers, either legal or illegal. They deserve to have their spiritual needs seen to, esp. in the area of confession and catechesis. Spanish in the Southwest is a reality and prospective priest who cannot deal with it need to get themselves to a diocese that has little danger of needing it.

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I disagree. My family has been in New Mexico since the spanish first got here. My grandparents learned english in school because there home language was Spanish. However, when we became a State the family (and most families here) learned english to use in public because now we were Americans. The new Mexican imigration can do the same thing. Plus, a lot of the imigrants can speak english already they just choose not to out of spite. I went to an appointment one time and untill he realized who I was he pretended to not know english and then when he recognized me he spoke english fine.

**It appears as if “thread drift” is occurring.

Please make every effort to “stay on course”.

**

[quote=mosher]I disagree. My family has been in New Mexico since the spanish first got here. My grandparents learned english in school because there home language was Spanish. However, when we became a State the family (and most families here) learned english to use in public because now we were Americans. The new Mexican imigration can do the same thing. Plus, a lot of the imigrants can speak english already they just choose not to out of spite. I went to an appointment one time and untill he realized who I was he pretended to not know english and then when he recognized me he spoke english fine.
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Well, lest we be shut down, one more word: I don’t know how far north they get (Albuquerque is in the center of the state), but in Las Vegas (Nevada) that won’t fly. More of our priests will have to be able to speak Spanish.

And, jolting the thread back on track, Latin should be re-emphasized, as per good Pope John’s missive…as long as we still have Mass in the vernacular.

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