Why won't Protestants call Mary "Mother of God"


#1

Here is the text of a conversation I had in a chat room. I am JP_Magnus.
<JP_Magnus> Can I ask someone a question?

yes

<JP_Magnus> In Matthew chapter 4 verse 10 Jesus says “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve”. Does this mean that The Lord is God? I mean, is the term Lord the same as saying God?
Also, in Matthew 1:20 it says “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream,” So is the angel of the Lord, the angel of God?

in the Bible they use Lord in referring to God. the Angel of the Lord is Jesus

<JP_Magnus> Jesus is an angel?

no

no… angel meaning messenger. Jesus is God the father’s messenger. God’s word. Lord menas master and teacher. so God is Lord of our lives

<JP_Magnus> In Luke 1:32 the angel is speaking to Mary and says He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:. Again it uses the term Lord God. So when it says Lord God, is it talking about God?

<JP_Magnus> I guess the question is, is God our Lord?

yes

<JP_Magnus> Okay. Thank you. The Bible seems to be saying that too, and I know we can trust the Bible, it is God’s word.

Here is another question. In Luke chapter 1, after Mary is told she will give birth to Jesus, she goes to visit her cousin Elizabeth. When she gets there, Elizabeth greets her and says (verse 42) “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth calls Mary, “the mother of my Lord…” Since Lord is used to mean God in other verses, does this mean that Elizabeth was calling Mary “the mother of my God.” ?

she was the earthly mother of the Lord when he came in the flesh

Lord does not mean God. u can call god Lord though

<JP_Magnus> Oh. So when Elizabeth says, Lord, who does she mean?

Christ

<JP_Magnus> So, in other places in the New Testament, Lord is the same as God, but when Elizabeth used it, it only meant Master or Teacher? But isn’t Jesus God?

most often its Christ that is reffered as Lord

Jesus is son of God or God in Flesh

Sarah called her husband Lord. in the context of the word master she meant her earthly master as a wife obeys her husband

Lord is anyone who have lordship over you

<JP_Magnus> So, are you saying that Elizabeth was calling Mary, “the mother of my master?”

we refer to Jesus as master in our lives as Lord

dont just argue for argueing «JP_Magnus» u wont get anywhere with it

<JP_Magnus> I’m not. I am just curious.

I told you Elizabeth was reffering to Christ

<JP_Magnus> But Jesus is God, isn’t he?

yes what is important to remember is that you make God the Lord of your life

Jesus is son of God or God in Flesh. the Father Son and the Holy Sprit are 3 in one different personalities

but one God

<JP_Magnus> So, just to get this straight, Jesus is God, and Lord is sometimes used to mean God, but when Elizabeth calls Mary, “the Mother of my Lord” she doesn’t mean God, she means master? Is that correct?

Blessed> SHE MENT CHRIST is that clear

<JP_Magnus> Isnt’ Jesus the Christ?

yes

Jesus means God with us. Christ means the saviour, the messiah

<JP_Magnus> Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus is God. So when Elizabeth called mary “the mother of my Lord” are you saying she meant, “the mother of Christ”?

Jesus is the Christ. Enough JP

in this instance yes

<JP_Magnus> And is the Christ God?

what do you think?

go read bible. its all well explained there

<JP_Magnus> Yes. I think the Christ is God.

ask the Spirit to explain it to your heart

Jesus, Christ Farther Lord all are God. each has different meanings. Father is God the Father, Jesus is the name given to Christ, Son of God

<JP_Magnus> I am just curious as to what Elizabeth meant when she called Mary “the mother of my Lord.”

Lord is who have lordship on you

<JP_Magnus> And who had Lordship on Elizabeth?

its can be abyone depending on the context

it was the Spirit dwelling in her child… John the baptist that revealed that to her

in that instance Elizabeth was reffering to Christ who is the saviour of man kind

pray that the same holy Spirit reveals this perfectly to you jp


#2

Is this a real conversation or a hypothetical one?


#3

[quote=Della]Is this a real conversation or a hypothetical one?
[/quote]

This is a real conversation from a Christian chat room I visited this afternoon.


#4

Actually…they DID!

My thanks to San Juan Catholic Seminars for publishing this in their Beginning Apologetics # 5 booklet. (A GREAT investment!)

The three “pillars of the reformation”, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, all believed that Mary was the mother of God.

Mother of God

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 348 and 335.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God.” ( Zwingli Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp., Vol.
6, I, page 639.)

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

Martin Luther: “ It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin… Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” ( Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pages 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.)

John Calvin: “ There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company… And beside this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25. Published in 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” ( Zwingli Opera, Vol. 1, page 424.)


#5

Based on that conversation there’s a real problem. Some of those folks are showing themselves to be nestorian by saying that the two natures of Jesus (divine and human) are seperable. They are completely inseperable.

THe real reason is that it’s a “Catholic thing.” A lot of things Protestants object to because they think it’s a “Catholic thing” and for no reason other than that. They just figure they need to find everything they can to attack the Church about to show it’s wrong so they pick up on minor things like this, and just because it’s just a “Catholic thing” they choose to not believe it and attack it.


#6

[quote=Lazerlike42]Based on that conversation there’s a real problem. Some of those folks are showing themselves to be nestorian by saying that the two natures of Jesus (divine and human) are seperable. They are completely inseperable.

THe real reason is that it’s a “Catholic thing.” A lot of things Protestants object to because they think it’s a “Catholic thing” and for no reason other than that. They just figure they need to find everything they can to attack the Church about to show it’s wrong so they pick up on minor things like this, and just because it’s just a “Catholic thing” they choose to not believe it and attack it.
[/quote]

Sadly, I have to agree with you LL42.


#7

He who has seen Me has seen the Father. Mary is the Blessed Mother of Jesus. So it was Jesus that led me to believe that Mary is the Mother of God. The Holy Trinity is a mystery that I do not feel capable of really understanding, but it is not a mystery that They are one. Sometimes its not what you know but Who you know.


#8

Be careful now. Mary is NOT the mother of the Trinity, or the Father, or the Holy Spirit.


#9

[quote=ICXCNIKA]Here is the text of a conversation I had in a chat room. I am JP_Magnus.
<JP_Magnus> Can I ask someone a question?

yes

<JP_Magnus> In Matthew chapter 4 verse 10 Jesus says “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve”. Does this mean that The Lord is God? I mean, is the term Lord the same as saying God?
Also, in Matthew 1:20 it says “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream,” So is the angel of the Lord, the angel of God?

in the Bible they use Lord in referring to God. the Angel of the Lord is Jesus

<JP_Magnus> Jesus is an angel?

no

no… angel meaning messenger. Jesus is God the father’s messenger. God’s word. Lord menas master and teacher. so God is Lord of our lives

<JP_Magnus> In Luke 1:32 the angel is speaking to Mary and says He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:. Again it uses the term Lord God. So when it says Lord God, is it talking about God?

<JP_Magnus> I guess the question is, is God our Lord?

yes

<JP_Magnus> Okay. Thank you. The Bible seems to be saying that too, and I know we can trust the Bible, it is God’s word.

Here is another question. In Luke chapter 1, after Mary is told she will give birth to Jesus, she goes to visit her cousin Elizabeth. When she gets there, Elizabeth greets her and says (verse 42) “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth calls Mary, “the mother of my Lord…” Since Lord is used to mean God in other verses, does this mean that Elizabeth was calling Mary “the mother of my God.” ?

she was the earthly mother of the Lord when he came in the flesh

Lord does not mean God. u can call god Lord though

<JP_Magnus> Oh. So when Elizabeth says, Lord, who does she mean?

Christ

<JP_Magnus> So, in other places in the New Testament, Lord is the same as God, but when Elizabeth used it, it only meant Master or Teacher? But isn’t Jesus God?

most often its Christ that is reffered as Lord

Jesus is son of God or God in Flesh

Sarah called her husband Lord. in the context of the word master she meant her earthly master as a wife obeys her husband

Lord is anyone who have lordship over you

<JP_Magnus> So, are you saying that Elizabeth was calling Mary, “the mother of my master?”

we refer to Jesus as master in our lives as Lord

dont just argue for argueing «JP_Magnus» u wont get anywhere with it

<JP_Magnus> I’m not. I am just curious.

I told you Elizabeth was reffering to Christ

<JP_Magnus> But Jesus is God, isn’t he?

yes what is important to remember is that you make God the Lord of your life

Jesus is son of God or God in Flesh. the Father Son and the Holy Sprit are 3 in one different personalities

but one God

<JP_Magnus> So, just to get this straight, Jesus is God, and Lord is sometimes used to mean God, but when Elizabeth calls Mary, “the Mother of my Lord” she doesn’t mean God, she means master? Is that correct?

Blessed> SHE MENT CHRIST is that clear

<JP_Magnus> Isnt’ Jesus the Christ?

yes

Jesus means God with us. Christ means the saviour, the messiah

<JP_Magnus> Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus is God. So when Elizabeth called mary “the mother of my Lord” are you saying she meant, “the mother of Christ”?

Jesus is the Christ. Enough JP

in this instance yes

<JP_Magnus> And is the Christ God?

what do you think?

go read bible. its all well explained there

<JP_Magnus> Yes. I think the Christ is God.

ask the Spirit to explain it to your heart

Jesus, Christ Farther Lord all are God. each has different meanings. Father is God the Father, Jesus is the name given to Christ, Son of God

<JP_Magnus> I am just curious as to what Elizabeth meant when she called Mary “the mother of my Lord.”

Lord is who have lordship on you

<JP_Magnus> And who had Lordship on Elizabeth?

its can be abyone depending on the context

it was the Spirit dwelling in her child… John the baptist that revealed that to her

in that instance Elizabeth was reffering to Christ who is the saviour of man kind

pray that the same holy Spirit reveals this perfectly to you jp

[/quote]

To me the the best passage is whereThomas calls Jesus “My Lord AND my God!” You are dealing with a person who believes that Jesus is two different persons one human one Divine. One it seems that does not believe that Jesus is God? You can’t really accomplish anything there.


#10

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]To me the the best passage is whereThomas calls Jesus “My Lord AND my God!” You are dealing with a person who believes that Jesus is two different persons one human one Divine. One it seems that does not believe that Jesus is God? You can’t really accomplish anything there.
[/quote]

Also note that the Greek word used for “mother of my Lord” is the same Greek word used to describe God in a lot of places.


#11

They’re not very s-m-a-r-t… :whistle: Although they are sincere…
They are right about God being Eternal and not having a mother in the conventional sense…but…

Since by the power of the Holy Sprit Jesus is God made man…Mary is in fact the ‘Mother of God’…

Something to try on your fundie friends…
Since some of our protestant bretheren belive in bible infallibility,
qualify that they do indeed subscribe to that line of thought, then
whip a little Luke 6:30 on 'em…

Most of the time, that dog won’t hunt :rolleyes:


#12

whats funny is that the title “Mother of God” is not to put Mary on a platform but to defend the natures of Christ and thier unity when he became man.


#13

Many Protestants do call Mary “Mother of God.” R.C. Sproul, for instance, who can hardly be accused of crypto-Catholicism!

Edwin


#14

I realize that I am scarcely R C Sproul, but I am a protestant who says that Mary is the Mother of God…
The only way you can dodge that one, is to downgrade Jesus. I mean, that’s what I’ve always thought, that–somebody said, the title isn’t about Mary. The title is about Jesus…“Whom do men say that I am?” “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”.
It’s kinda weird…I mean, are these folks not reading their Bibles? 'Cause that is what it says in there…
Of course, John Wesley was accused of crypto Catholicism :rolleyes: every 15 minutes or so…I may have picked that up that way. I know he believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. I have no idea whether he ever addressed the issue of calling Mary the Mother of God…


#15

[quote=Church Militant]Actually…they DID!

My thanks to San Juan Catholic Seminars for publishing this in their Beginning Apologetics # 5 booklet. (A GREAT investment!)

The three “pillars of the reformation”, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, all believed that Mary was the mother of God.

Mother of God

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 348 and 335.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God.” ( Zwingli Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp., Vol.
6, I, page 639.)

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

Martin Luther: “ It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin… Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” ( Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pages 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.)

John Calvin: “ There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company… And beside this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25. Published in 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” ( Zwingli Opera, Vol. 1, page 424.)

[/quote]

A lesson in protestantism: you know its at work when most protestants dont even believe what the original “reformers” believed!


#16

[quote=Catholic Dude]A lesson in protestantism: you know its at work when most protestants dont even believe what the original “reformers” believed!
[/quote]

This is something that I’ve noticed myself. It’s odd that they not only (generally) do not know squat about Christian history (except biased modern sources like Foxe’s Book of Martyrs), but do not know what the original reformers believed (even if they founded their own denom!.)


#17

[quote=Contarini]Many Protestants do call Mary “Mother of God.” R.C. Sproul, for instance, who can hardly be accused of crypto-Catholicism!

Edwin
[/quote]

Always my favorite example! Sproul presents one of the best explanations of the title, “Mother of God” that I have ever heard. Mainstream Protestantism does not reject this title.


#18

[quote=mercygate]Always my favorite example! Sproul presents one of the best explanations of the title, “Mother of God” that I have ever heard. Mainstream Protestantism does not reject this title.
[/quote]

…but it seems that Fundamenatism does…


#19

Protestants who refuse to call Mary the Mother of God make that decision because they are uncomfortable with the possibility of sounding “too Catholic.”

It’s ironic because any question over Mary’s motherhood of the Word made flesh calls Christ’s divine nature into question. Seems like a case of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

Any sincere protestant arguments to the contrary out there? What’s wrong with the title “Mother of God?”

-Peace


#20

Mary is not the mother of God because God has no beginning and no end. God in his divine nature existed **before ** Mary was born. Mary in scripture is called the mother of our Lord, but never the mother of God. There is a vast difference in that understanding.

                     Also, when Mary gave birth to Jesus, **he already was the divine Son of God** before he was in the womb of Mary. Mary in no way attributed to the deity that Christ had prior to his incarnation. Therefore calling Mary the mother of God is a false title and terribly misleading.

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