why would any rational person believe this???!!!

.

I read this short story about how this woman converted from Presbyterianism…

They (some?) apparently believe that God created some people for Heaven and some for Hell… :eek::hypno::coffeeread:

I thought:

What!!!

Who could possibly believe such a preposterous thing? True, it isn’t the first time I’ve heard of it but for some reason it hit me especially hard last night as i read this story… :banghead::banghead:

Have you run into this kind of thing when talking to people about religion?

There is that one scripture about… something about being predestined for… [something]
i don’t have my Bible handy…

anyway, i believe that God, when He created us and gave us free will, chose NOT to know our futures. I believe (know) that He allowed us to be total “gods” over our destinies… our choices…

Have you run into this kind of thing when talking to people about religion?

newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

You would need an exceedingly thin cigarette paper to be able to fit it between Calvin and Aquinas on that subject.

what does that mean?

Aquinas was never my favorite saint… but i doubt he believed in this kind of nonsenese…

and again, i don’t see how any rational person could…

That belief totally contradicts half of the Bible…

it contradicts 1 Jn 4: God is love…

he is not willing that ANY should perish… and He died on a cross to make sure that everyone would… if he wanted to… find Him…

I wonder if this helps at all?

John 6:37-43 (New International Version)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that** I shall lose none of all that he has given me, **but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It seems to me that God has made some people **for heaven **as evident by this scripture? So why not hold the opposite; for hell…?
Can you see why I posted it here?

xxx zundrah xxx

Click on the link, and read it for yourself. And when you have finished with Aquinas, you might try Augustine: newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

Since when does Protests have to be rational? If they were, they would realize that, regardless of what their denomination is, the Catholic Church precedes it and their denomination was founded by a mere man or woman breaking off from either the Catholic Church or another Protestant group (which, in turn, broke off from the Catholic Church or another Protestant group and, tracing the break offs and schisms, we eventually get back to a group who broke off from the Catholic Church).

I agree with you. Double predestination might pass the sola scriptura test but it sure flunks the common sense test.

And there was me thinking that it was Protestants who were supposed to disown authority in favour of what they would like to be true. Predestination, or preordination, runs through the Bible like a refrain, from beginning to end. Which, I suppose, is why the more illustrious Catholic saits are signed up to it.

It is a convenient view - if you’re predestined for either heaven or hell, your actions don’t matter and you can do what ever you like.

This is entirely ridiculous of course.

I agree - God chose not to know our futures at the beginning of humankind when he gave us free will.

Gives me a good laugh though :smiley:

Well, I don’t know about your analogy (:)), but there is a world of difference between God knowing every free will decision we will ever make and God not giving us free will. And you will never find any Church Father or Doctor, Sts. Augustine and Aquinas included, who said that we do not have free will, which is the cornerstone of Calvinism. And so where you see a tiny gap, I see a gap you could drive a Mack truck through!

this passage proves MY point, not that of the Presbyterians.

whoever comes to Jesus will not be rejected… Whoever… (it says)…

it doesn’t say All those who have not been destined to Hell… (will be accepted by Christ)… It says WHOEVER…

right… and one reason i would be Roman Catholic - if there were not a thousand others - is:

you don’t have to check your brains at the door…

:rolleyes:

No, but you will find them saying that God predestines people, and for no other reason other than his own will.

i don’t have time to read such a lengthy article…

and i am NOT going to change my mind on this anyhow…

The Cathlic church teaches that we are saved but accepting Christ and doing everything he tells us… (not sinning, etc…)

It is also what nobody believes. If you are predestined, then implicit in the gift of the Holy Spirit is the desire to serve God.

Calm down… there is no need to be mean. :frowning:

Double predestination is probably the most cruel doctrine of all. It just doesn’t seem like it could pass the “God is Love” test either.

Predestination=:thumbsup:

Double predestination= :eek:

Me tired now.

What do you make of this statement by Augustine then?

And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens."…But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other.

Now after commending the mercy of God, saying, “So it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” that he might commend His justice also (for the man who does not obtain mercy finds, not iniquity, but justice, there being no iniquity with God), he immediately adds: “For the scripture says unto Pharoah, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.” And then he draws a conclusion that applies to both, that is, both to His mercy and His justice: “Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” “He has mercy” of His great goodness, “He hardens” without any injustice; so that neither can he that is pardoned glory in any merit of his own, nor he that is condemned complain of anything but his own demerit. For it is grace alone that separates the redeemed from the lost, all having been involved in one common perdition through their common origin. **Now if any one, on hearing this, should say, “Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?” as if a man ought not to be blamed for being bad, because God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens, God forbid that we should be ashamed to answer as we see the apostle answered: “Nay, but, O man, who are you that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why have You made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?” **

These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace.

(The Enchiridion, Chapters 98-100)
newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm

By the way I do not hold to double predestination, although I think that predestination itself is scriptural. I also believe God has given us freewill. How can predestination and freewill go together? I don’t know, but I do know anything is possible with God.

Having said this, however, it is difficult to see how, if God predestines some to be saved, He is not in some way predestining to punishment those He does not choose to save.

I took this off a Presbyterian website about their belief of predestination:
Calvinism:
A. God’s sovereign decision to save is sufficient; all those whom God wills to save are saved.

C. Some are damned (because God chose them to be damned).

D. Those who are saved must respond in faith (because God’s grace creates this faith in them).

John Calvin is the creator of Presbyterians…
pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9703.htm

No one is being forced to believe anything, so don’t worry about it.
Secondly, it’s not charitable to claim another believing person’s beliefs are not rational.
I could see you saying mine are not rational, but really! Your own beleving sisters and brothers? Even if you disagree, you have to realize they don’t think it is the least bit irrational. Give them the benefit of the doubt they sincerely believe as they do.
It would be better to say, I don’t agree in this doctrine because XYZ.
But, just dismissing it as not rational, that is not helping anyone see your objection at all.
I personally think your use of emotional appeal, and later statements don’t do much to prove it is irrational at all. It’s no more irrational than Lot and his daughters story. I mean, I think it fits perfectly within rational if you compare those two events.
Anything goes with God after all. :shrug:
I really wish that horrible story about Lot was not in the bible. It makes me sick.:frowning:

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