Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true


#3146

Exactly right. Thank you.


#3147

“So the penicillin-resistant bacteria were there in the population before they encountered penicillin. They did not evolve resistance in response to exposure to the antibiotic.”


#3148

They just happened to have the random mutation that made them resistant. Evolution does not posit that exposure creates mutations. This experiment is taken as one of the classical confirmations of a key principle of evolution.


#3149

It didn’t confirm anything. By using a built-in mechanism called Horizontal Gene Transfer, bacteria can transfer genetic bits to other species of bacteria. Dirt was taken from a remote area and bacteria were found in it that were resistant to man-made and natural antibiotics/harmful substances. What this shows is, given a random sample of bacteria, you may luck out in the lab.


#3150

You have just left the reasonable conclusion of experimental science and lept into mythology of evolution.

Did you read the experiment methodology? That is exactly what Lederberg sought to prove via experiment. In doing so, Lederberg also demonstrated that the penicillin resistant genes were always present in the bacterial gene pool. Lederberg’s experiment is experimental data supporting the presence of a large and fixed gene pool.

Evolution (macroevolution) requires an expansion of the gene pool, the addition of new genes (with new information for new traits as life is supposed to move from simple beginnings to ever more varied and complex forms (“molecules to man” or “fish to philosopher”). However, Lederberg experiment negates that notion. From the article cited:

Esther and Joshua Lederberg determined that many of these mutations for antibiotic resistance existed in the population even before the population was exposed to the antibiotic — and that exposure to the antibiotic did not cause those new resistant mutants to appear.


#3151


#3152

But… but… we can’t help it! It’s an automatic process! Please don’t hurt us…


#3153

All you have done is shifted the question of how the experimental bacteria got resistant to the question how some other bacteria got resistant. In both cases, evolution answers the question - random mutation. It even says so right there in o-milly’s citation.

Let me quote for you what your citation says:

In 1952, Esther and Joshua Lederberg performed an experiment that helped to show that many mutations are random, not directed.

No, it does not show they were “always” present. It shows they were present as of the time of the sample. It did not show that this mutation was present in bacteria 2 million years ago.

That was not the intent of the researchers, and no serious scientist takes that conclusion from that experiment. Again, the purpose was to show that bacteria did not “become” resistant because of exposure. It shows that some of them already had that mutation. You are making a leap of logic to assume that particular mutation was there from the beginning. The experiment does not show that.

No, it only negates one notion - the notion that exposure to penicillin causes the mutation that makes for resistance to penicillin. evolution also negates that notion.


#3154

How many different Christian denominations are there? The Bible is not immune to faulty or incomplete human reasoning, or was Luther’s reasoning accurate and complete?

So, why did the Holy Office condemn Galileo for saying that the earth moved? How long did it take for the Church to condemn slavery? At least until Dum Diversas or Romanus Pontifex.

If the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and the Church allows acceptance of evolution for animals, and for the human body, then why do you fight against it so strongly?

rossum


#3155

But that gap will get smaller and smaller as science works to close it. Do you want your God to get smaller over time?

“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we do not know; God wants us to realize his presence, not in unsolved problems but in those that are solved.”

– Dietrich Bonhoeffer

rossum


#3156

There is only one, holy, Catholic, apostolic church. The rest are devolved from the main.


#3157

You need to understand why. You don’t. Dig a little deeper.


#3158

Because it is wrong.


#3159

For someone who professes to following the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church, that seems to be a pretty interesting position.

But that’s none of my business :coffee::frog:


#3160

No proof is offered for this claim; all that is presented is an appeal to the belief system of evolution.

All creation is brought into existence, each individual moment emerging from God’s eternal Now. This world that includes us, had a beginning in simpler forms that were in turn utilized in the creation of ever more complex beings, all demonstrating an ongoing diversity.

At the bottomof this hierarchy of systems, just above the chemical, are bacteria and fungi, such as yeast. They are important constituents of the environment they share and allows for higher forms of life. In order to keep a harmonious balance within that global system, they possess and have possessed since their creation, capacities to limit the growth of each other, which includes the production of toxins. Bacteria can kill moulds who in turn produce antibiotics. We utilize these properties to defend ourselves from infection. These capacities have always been there but were lost, by some members of their kind, as a result of random physical activity, which affected the chemistry of cells and specifically their DNA.

Here’s an old article which delves into this relationship between bacteria and fungi and how it applies to infection of human beings:

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_02/fight_fungi.shtml

Repeated over and over again is the term evolution. A focussed reading of the paper will clearly demonstrate that there is no proof for such a process; what happens is that the data is woven into that mythos, which everyone in modern society is expected to believe.


#3161

Irrelevant to my point. Both Catholic and non-Catholic interpretations of the Bible have had errors in the past. Some interpretations still do.

rossum


#3162

So, the Catholic Church, as guided by the Holy Spirit, allows belief in something that is wrong? You really need to rethink your position there, buffalo.

rossum


#3163

The claim is the claim that evolution is true. That claim has been supported at least 1200 times in this thread alone.


#3164

Repeating the same thing over and over again, 1200 times by your calculations, is by no means support for a claim that has no merit.


#3165

You’re in denial, friend. If some of the bacteria were resistant to penicillin then the (fixed and large) gene pool always contained the necessary genes to achieve that permutation.


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