Will God change His mind on


#1

women’s ordination?
I snuck a peek at the “women only” thread on women’s ordination. I, not being a woman, am not eligible to respond on that thread, but I saw a few posts that crystallized for me the reason this is STILL such a hotly debated issue within the Church, so I started this thread.
One poster said that she had no problems with the all-male priesthood. She understood that that was the way Jesus set it up and that was fine.
Then she added that at some time in the future GOD MIGHT CHANGE HIS MIND ON WOMEN PRIESTS, and let us know if He did so.
The lack of understanding here is that God is immutable - he does not change.
One of the myriad ways to approach this truth is that time is change and God, being outside time, does not change. He could more easily change the value of pi (3.14159…) and have all airplanes fall from the sky as he could change ANY Church dogma, including ordaining women.
Some Catholics understand this and some Catholics don’t. Almost all non-Catholics don’t, which was the reason for all the blather in the MSM about the new pope allowing women’s ordination before Benedict was elected.
If any Church dogma were to change, the Catholic Church would cease to be, and Jesus promised that would not happen.
There will never be women ordained as priests in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. Pi will always be 3.14159…


#2

Not only will God not change His mind, it is now officially impossible that the Church will ever change her mind. The male-only priesthood was infallibly defined *ex cathedra *by Pope John Paul the Great in 1994:

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Definition of Ex Cathedra:

“We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.”

Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv:


#3

Yea right after he changes his mind on the 10 commandments, homosexuality, Jesus, and the earth being round.


#4

The day that women become priests life as we know it will end. You can not change what is infallibly defined *ex cathedra. :banghead: *

Women and Men each have a place in the Roman Catholic Church and they are not interchangeable. We complement one another in the home, public and church life.:clapping:

Kathleen Elsie Gibbs
Wife, mother, grandmother
Pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy daily


#5

And a response on this from me, the Non-Catholic Christian…

I dont say this as to offend the women in the Roman Catholic Church. However, I probably will. However, I will say that I wish my Protestant church had male-only leadership.

I come from a Presbyterian Church USA background. It went WAY too far in catering to women after Women’s Lib. Now they are pastors, they are in leadership, and they make up the vast majority of the people in the pews. My church has about 8 women on the “Session” (our ruling body) versus 4 men.

My friend- a conservative pastor- is constantly under fire for speaking out on abortion, the role of women, etc. And it is mostly from within the female leadership. I think Paul commented on this issue…

There are roles for good women in the church.

But I can honestly say- I think this is one where I’m very with the RC church. I would not change it. No offense to you ladies. I wish you could all come to the church where i worship on Sundays, and see the logical progression of NOT having the rule you folks have. Its not pretty. Its a mess. And with so many women in positions of power, the gospels tend to be feminized if not held in check.

The church of my youth tried to infer that God warned EVERYBODY about the Genesis flood, and only Moses listened. (A female pastor…) When I confronted her with this as a little kid,- saying “That’s not really what I read”- she said “So you think a mean God just judged everybody?”) She also hated Revelation. “Too much mean judgement.”

Yet the women of the congregation ADORED her. And they made up 70 percent of the people in the pews… and 80% of the session members.

Keep what you have, folks.


#6

Hi, ScottH ! Glad to see you,

reen12


#7

[quote=reen12]Hi, ScottH ! Glad to see you,

reen12
[/quote]

Howdy Reen12!! Good to see you.

Yes, I’m back from my two week stay in internet forum purgatory- a place made for us sometimes-noisy non-Roman Catholics. :yup:


#8

few posts that crystallized for me the reason this is STILL such a hotly debated issue within the Church,

I hate to disagree but this is not a hotly debated issue within the Church. Pope John Paul the Great settled it once and for all. The Church has NO authority to ordain women and this is to be definitively held by all the faithful. The ones that are hotly debating FOR ordination are not faithful but dissidents. I dont hear or read anywhere that the Pope and some Bishops are hotly debating this non-issue…


#9

[quote=TobyLue]I dont hear or read anywhere that the Pope and some Bishops are hotly debating this non-issue…
[/quote]

That’s an excellent point. It’s very telling how open an issue is to discussion when the only people discussing it are those with no power to change it.


#10

[quote=TobyLue] Pope John Paul the Great settled it once and for all. The Church has NO authority to ordain women and this is to be definitively held by all the faithful. The ones that are hotly debating FOR ordination are not faithful but dissidents. I dont hear or read anywhere that the Pope and some Bishops are hotly debating this non-issue…
[/quote]

**AMEN!!! **

**And you never will hear or read anywhere that the Pope and some bishops are hotly debating this non-issue. :wink: **


#11

My whole instinct tells me that the Church
is correct on this issue.

I don’t know why it is correct, but instinct isn’t
a bad thing to rely on, I find.

It may turn out, long after I’m gone, that I
was ‘identifying with the oppressor’, but I doubt it.:slight_smile:

I always like the song-line from My Fair Lady.

Rex Harrison sings:

“Men are so decent,
So basically fair…”

I’ve found that to be true.:clapping:

Maureen


#12

I cannot understand why people want woman to be priests!! Why?

I remember one of the priests on Daily Mass on EWTN saying something like “…the pope has no authority to change the teachings, even as pope!” That explains well. And it also relieved me too because I don’t want woman as priests!


#13

[quote=reen12]My whole instinct tells me that the Church
is correct on this issue.

I don’t know why it is correct, but instinct isn’t
a bad thing to rely on, I find.

It may turn out, long after I’m gone, that I
was ‘identifying with the oppressor’, but I doubt it.:slight_smile:

I always like the song-line from My Fair Lady.

Rex Harrison sings:

“Men are so decent,
So basically fair…”

I’ve found that to be true.:clapping:

Maureen
[/quote]

I gave this answer in the women’s only thread (as I recall) but I think it got buried under all the rhetoric. Anyway, here it is again (although not word for word):

The biblical and theological reason for an all male priesthood has to do with authority. It began with Adam and Eve. Adam was responsible for Eve before God. When she sinned and then offered Adam the fruit he should have refused it and made reparation before God for her. But, we all know what happened instead.

This is why Paul wrote that sin came into the world through one man and why Jesus was the Second Adam who would redeem us all, male and female alike. Since a man mucked things up it is only justice that a man make it right. So, the duty of making things right has fallen to man under Christ, the Second Adam. Men have the duty to offer up reparation for the sin of Adam, which Jesus made easy for them to do by dying on the cross in our place.

I may not be explaining this principle very well, but that is the gist of it.


#14

[quote=TobyLue]I hate to disagree but this is not a hotly debated issue within the Church. Pope John Paul the Great settled it once and for all. The Church has NO authority to ordain women and this is to be definitively held by all the faithful. The ones that are hotly debating FOR ordination are not faithful but dissidents. I dont hear or read anywhere that the Pope and some Bishops are hotly debating this non-issue…
[/quote]

Okay, you got me on that one. I agree, but the dissidents consider themselves still part of the Church. There are Jesuit “theologians” questionung this teaching. Do you remember what the Canadian Bishops Conference did when Pope John VI issued Humanae vitae? They all met in Ottowa and protested. Dissent? Yes, but within the Church.
My point in the original post was that there are many who consider themselves good Catholics who don’t understand, or believe in, infallible teaching.
The tragedy, as I see it, is that so many women in our culture, within and without the Church, are abrogating their beautful and God-given role as cooperators with God in the creation of human life. The radical feminists have convinced a segment of our female population that being a woman is not good enough, that they have to be men in order to be of value, while we know that the roles of men and women are complimentary.
No, our culture teaches that everything is reative and there are no differences between the roles of the sexes. That’s why there is so little understanding of infaliible Church teaching…your infallibility isn’t my infallibility. The church needs catechesis, serious catechesis, desperately. Hopefully His Holiness Benedict XVI can move us in that direction.
By the way, I’m very pleased that no names were dredged up from the other thread. Its the idea I’m countering, not the posters.


#15

[quote=Dr. Colossus]Not only will God not change His mind, it is now officially impossible that the Church will ever change her mind. The male-only priesthood was infallibly defined *ex cathedra *by Pope John Paul the Great in 1994:
[/quote]

No, it’s not ex cathedra. It’s a matter of discipline/practice, not faith/morals. No pope has made an ex cathedra statement since Pius XII in 1950, when he defined the dogma of the Assumption.

But if it isn’t or is ex cathedra doesn’t change the fact that in the Catholic Church women will never be priests. That’s the way it should be.


#16

No God will not change his mind about male priesthood, any more than he will change his mind about all female motherhood.


#17

Dear Fidei Defensor,

quote, Fidei Defensor:

No, it’s not ex cathedra. It’s a matter of discipline/practice, not faith/morals. No pope has made an ex cathedra statement since Pius XII in 1950, when he defined the dogma of the Assumption.

Hold everything! Are you saying that women priests
fall in the same category as celibate clergy…which
the Church could change tomorrow if the Church saw
fit? A matter of “discipline/practice”?

Now I’m truly lost on this topic.

reen12


#18

APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, **in virtue of my ministry ** of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

If that’s not ex cathedra, it’s as close as one can get, and puts this statement infinitely above simple discipline. It confers dogmatic status on the teaching.
It’s okay, Maureen, nothing’s changed.


#19

Hi, Strider,

Well, I felt like you were the cavalry, coming over
the hill, just in time!

You know that "I have been a rebel from my
youth [late-fifties:)] but the thought that this
matter fell under discipline/practice made me
tremble to the depths of my [former] Irish-
Catholic roots!:o

I said on another thread that I would just
tie my little rowboat to the stern of the
barque of Peter.

What I forgot to add, was:
“And call me, if we need to repel boarders.”:slight_smile:

Thanks, Strider,
Maureen


#20

No, God doesn’t change His mind
but our understanding of Him changes over time

I mean if we’re not geting better as time goes on then we’re wasting a lot of time and energy.

And no, the world won’t end if certain issues are rethunk


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