Will non Christians go to hell?


#1

hi hi… got into this heated argument with this Protestant friend of mine. He kept insisting that non christians will perish and burn in the recesses of hell while i kept saying that our god is a fair and just god… please help…

thanks


#2

This is what the Catechism says:

[font=Verdana]Outside the Church there is no salvation"[/font]

[font=Verdana]846[/font]
[font=Verdana]How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:[/font]

[font=Verdana]Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/font]

[font=Verdana]847[/font]
[font=Verdana]This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:[/font]

[font=Verdana]Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.[/font]

[font=Verdana]848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

[/font]


#3

So that person really believes that God would send millions upon millions of people to hell, just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? Anyone who has never heard the gospel? There were whole civilizations that never were evangelized.

I believe this is limiting God as we don’t decide who goes to hell, God decides, and it is up to God. I think the Cathecism sums it up nicely also, we do have a fair and just God.


#4

Non cAtholics==all of them will go to hell if they die and are outside the Catholic church–if they are invincibly ignorantof the faith and seek to do God’s will and have no other mortal sins then they can be saved—but other than that NO WAY-- THE ROAD IS WIDE THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION AND MANY WILL GO DOWN IT–THE ROAD TO SALVATION IS NARROW AND FEW WILL GO DOWN IT–ALL THE MORE REASON TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF MEN…


#5

[quote=marineboy]Non cAtholics==all of them will go to hell if they die and are outside the Catholic church–if they are invincibly ignorantof the faith and seek to do God’s will and have no other mortal sins then they can be saved—but other than that NO WAY-- THE ROAD IS WIDE THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION AND MANY WILL GO DOWN IT–THE ROAD TO SALVATION IS NARROW AND FEW WILL GO DOWN IT–ALL THE MORE REASON TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF MEN…
[/quote]

This isn’t in accordance with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church as set for in Her Catechism. But then you knew that. Original poster, read the Catechism #836-838, the whole of which is entitled ***Who Belongs to the Catholic Church? ***This deals with other Christians who are not formally joined to Holy Mother Church.


#6

[quote=marineboy]Non cAtholics==all of them will go to hell if they die and are outside the Catholic church–if they are invincibly ignorantof the faith and seek to do God’s will and have no other mortal sins then they can be saved—but other than that NO WAY-- THE ROAD IS WIDE THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION AND MANY WILL GO DOWN IT–THE ROAD TO SALVATION IS NARROW AND FEW WILL GO DOWN IT–ALL THE MORE REASON TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF MEN…
[/quote]

Thank you Marineboy for that post. The Bible says: “Without faith it is impossible to please God”. The Church has infallibly defined (at the Council of Trent) that the “faith” mentioned in that verse is the Catholic faith. So, withouth the “Catholic faith”, it is impossible to please God, and thus to be saved.

St. Thomas, the “angelic doctor” has told us that those who are outside of the Church through “invincible ignorance” are in that condition as a punishment from God. According to St. Thomas and St. Augustine, the state of invincible ignorance is a punishment for some sin they have committed. Therefore, let us not assume that these people are “innocent” and that God would be unjust for condemning them to hell. If it should ever happen that a non-Catholic actually lived a saintly life, we can rest assured that God would bring them into the Church before they died, even if it was in a way known only to God (baptism of desire).

And if we have had the great fortune to become Catholics, let us seek to remain faithful to this true faith and not reject it based on a false sentimentalism, whereby we reject what the Church teaches by claiming that those without faith can be saved. Believing this would be to reject what the Bible and the Church clearly teach.

Therefore, let us do out part to bring other into the true faith (the Church) “outside of which there is no salvation”. And let us not be like the false “ecumenists” who seek to be “united” with non-Catholics, without bringing them into the Church.

Thank you again Marineboy for being willing to state clearly what the Church has always taught, even when such a teaching is “politically incorrect”.

May God bless you.


#7

[quote=RSiscoe]Thank you Marineboy for that post. The Bible says: “Without faith it is impossible to please God”. The Church has infallibly defined (at the Council of Trent) that the “faith” mentioned in that verse is the Catholic faith. So, withouth the “Catholic faith”, it is impossible to please God, and thus to be saved.

St. Thomas, the “angelic doctor” has told us that those who are outside of the Church through “invincible ignorance” are in that condition as a punishment from God. According to St. Thomas and St. Augustine, the state of invincible ignorance is a punishment for some sin they have committed. Therefore, let us not assume that these people are “innocent” and that God would be unjust for condemning them to hell. If it should ever happen that a non-Catholic actually lived a saintly life, we can rest assured that God would bring them into the Church before they died, even if it was in a way known only to God (baptism of desire).

And if we have had the great fortune to become Catholics, let us seek to remain faithful to this true faith and not reject it based on a false sentimentalism, whereby we reject what the Church teaches by claiming that those without faith can be saved. Believing this would be to reject what the Bible and the Church clearly teach.

Therefore, let us do out part to bring other into the true faith (the Church) “outside of which there is no salvation”. And let us not be like the false “ecumenists” who seek to be “united” with non-Catholics, without bringing them into the Church.

Thank you again Marineboy for being willing to state clearly what the Church has always taught, even when such a teaching is “politically incorrect”.

May God bless you.
[/quote]

Original Poster: Be extremely careful of anything you read by RSiscoe. What he has posted above is not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church regarding our fellow Christians who are not formally united to that Catholic Church. Read what the Catechism says, Sections 817-819 (“Wounds to Unity”) and then Sections 836-838 (“Who Belongs to the Catholic Church?”). RSiscoe’s views are not the views of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church lead by HH Pope John Paul II.


#8

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Original Poster: Be extremely careful of anything you read by RSiscoe. What he has posted above is not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church regarding our fellow Christians who are not formally united to that Catholic Church. Read what the Catechism says, Sections 817-819 (“Wounds to Unity”) and then Sections 836-838 (“Who Belongs to the Catholic Church?”). RSiscoe’s views are not the views of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church lead by HH Pope John Paul II.
[/quote]

The following is a infallible Catholic dogma:

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed
ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

The following is the consistent teaching of the Church from the earliest years of the Church

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrement of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Caholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”


#9

Been expanded on, read the Catechism, “sure norm for teaching the faith,” blah, blah, blah. You Feenyites would have ceased to be annoying and only be boring, but for the innocents that might read your postings.


#10

[font=Times New Roman]A few additional quote from the magesterium of the Church:

Pope Pius IX "There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children.[2] There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord,[3] outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church.[4] Thus, there can be no greater crime, no more hideous stain than to stand up against Christ, than to divide the Church engendered and purchased by His blood, than to forget evangelical love and to combat with the furor of hostile discord the harmony of the people of God.[5] Source: Encyclical http://www.biblelight.net/star.gif SINGULARI QUIDEM, ON THE CHURCH IN AUSTRIA, of Pope Pius IX, March 17, 1856.
2. Rom 1; Heb 11; Council of Trent, session 6, chap. 8.
3. St. Cyprian, epistle 43.
4. Ibid., de unitat. Eccl.
5. Ibid., epistle 72.

[/font]Pope Pius IX: "Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."Encyclical http://www.biblelight.net/star.gif Quanto Conficiamur Moerore of Pope Pius IX, On Promotion of False Doctrines, August 10, 1863.

Pope Leo XIII: "But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, http://www.biblelight.net/star.gif Sapientiae Christianae (On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens), from paragraph 22, dated January 10, 1890, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), p. 193.


#11

Pope Leo XIII: ". … It was thus the duty of all who heard Jesus Christ, if they wished for eternal salvation, not merely to accept His doctrine as a whole, but to assent with their entire mind to all and every point of it, since it is unlawful to withhold faith from God even in regard to one single point. …

" The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition” (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore:, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).
Source: Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, http://www.biblelight.net/star.gif SATIS COGNITUMON, THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH, June 29, 1896.


#12

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Been expanded on, read the Catechism, “sure norm for teaching the faith,” blah, blah, blah. You Feenyites would have ceased to be annoying and only be boring, but for the innocents that might read your postings.
[/quote]

I am not a Feeneyinte. I simply believe what the Church has always taught. Do you believe what the Church has alway taught? Do you believe the quotes I provided by the Popes and saints of the Church? Of not, why not?


#13

CCC, JPII, “SACN!”


#14

[quote=RSiscoe]The following is a infallible Catholic dogma:

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed
ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

The following is the consistent teaching of the Church from the earliest years of the Church

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrement of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Caholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church." St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”
[/quote]

Either this is all true OR we have an example of
"Liberalism: A mental disorder wherein the Illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience" .

By those who deny it, yet affirm it.
"He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who does not believe, shall be condemned."
Quote from: God Almighty

If God requires this, then to whom does He deny His Grace to Believe?
Is a person invincible against GOD? If so what salvational virtue does he possess that makes him invincible against God?
Does ignorance now become a path of salvation? If so, missionary martyrs were pretty ignorant themselves.

IMHO, of course.


#15

Hi, TNT! Wondered when you’d show up. See above. :yawn:


#16

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Original Poster: Be extremely careful of anything you read by RSiscoe. What he has posted above is not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church regarding our fellow Christians who are not formally united to that Catholic Church. RSiscoe’s views are not the views of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church lead by HH Pope John Paul II.
[/quote]

Is a Christian one who believes part of the Christian Faith, denies part, and condemns the rest?

How, exactly does one enter heaven by:
Condemning:
The Communion of Saints.
The Perpetual Virginity of the womb of the Messiah.
The indefectibility of the True Church of Christ.
Purgatory.
Sunday Mass Obligation.
The whole sacrifice of the Mass.
"My flesh is food indeed, My Blood is drink indeed."
The Church that selected and restricted those writings that make up the NT.
The very Papacy of Peter and His lawful Successors.
Is one who holds any or all of these condemnations a “fellow Christian”?
All this condemning gives heavenly bliss? WOW!
Who needs to be Catholic?


#17

[quote=JKirkLVNV]CCC, JPII, “SACN!”
[/quote]

I want to make sure I am clear on this. Were you saying, in response to my post, that you reject what the Church has always taught based on “CCC” (the teachings of the catechism of the Catholic Church), “JP II” (the teachings of John Paul II) and “SACN” (not sure what that is).

But surely you know that the teachings of the faith do not change? Even the Pope is bound by what the Church has defined, and has always taught.

I have a question for you: If John Paul II teachings something contrary to what all of the Pope before 1960 taught, who should we believe? John Paul II, or all of his predecessors?


#18

[quote=RSiscoe]I am not a Feeneyinte. I simply believe what the Church has always taught. Do you believe what the Church has alway taught? Do you believe the quotes I provided by the Popes and saints of the Church? Of not, why not?
[/quote]

No Feeneyite names. When a liberal has no argument on logic he is bound to call names:
Feenyite.
Schismatic.
Jansenist.
Next generation of them will call us:
St Paulists !
A good Catholic apologist, internal or external, rises above this. Let hope no one else sinks on this thread.
ps.
The only dogma on Baptism of Desire comes from Trent. It is explicit Desire for the known object. It is not an implicit desire of an unknown object.

Can God Save an ignorant native on a desert island? Of course He can, but you will never know it without an external, visible sign. Do we have certitude that such has occurred without a sign? No. No a single one. Does Scripture affirm salvation outside of believing in Christ, specifically or implicitly? No.
So, where is the “Apostolic Tradition” of salvation for material heretics?

Galatians 1 6-10 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.


#19

[quote=TNT]No Feeneyite names. When a liberal has no argument on logic he is bound to call names:
Feenyite.
Schismatic.
Jansenist.
Next generation of them will call us: St Paulists !
[/quote]

Interesting point and probably 100% correct. Indeed, many blame St. Paul for the “politically incorrect” passages in the Bible, as though God is not the primary author. In the coming years, those who remain faithful to these passages will probably be called, as you said, “St. Paulists”.

Thank you TNT for another great post.


#20

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Hi, TNT! Wondered when you’d show up. See above. :yawn:
[/quote]

Nice to hear from you too.
I already “see” above. Thanks. That makes Everything crystal clear.
Read on:

[size=2] VATICAN COUNCIL I

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION “PASTOR AETERNUS”

CHAPTER IV

(On the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff)

[left]Moreover, the Roman Pontiffs, according to the dictates of time and circumstances, sometimes by calling ecumenical councils or asking the opinion of the Church dispersed throughout the world, sometimes through particular synods, sometimes by using other means which divine providence supplied, defined those things which must be held and which they knew, by the help of God, to be consonant with the Sacred Scriptures and apostolic traditions. For the Holy Spirit promised to the successors of Peter**, not that they would unfold new doctrine which He revealed to them**, but that, with His assistance, they would piously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith handed on through the Apostles. All the venerable Fathers and holy orthodox doctors venerated and followed their * apostolic doctrine; they knew full well that this See of St. Peter always remained unstained by all error, according to the divine promise which Our Savior made to the chief of His disciples when He said, ‘I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail, and you, having turned, strengthen your brothers.’ [/left]

…we teach and define that it is a divinely revealed dogma that the Roman Pontiff, *when he speaks ex cathedra, i.e., when exercising his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals which must be held by the universal Church, enjoys, through the divine assistance, that infallibility promised to him in blessed Peter and with which the divine Redeemer wanted His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals; and therefore that the definitions of the same Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves and not from the consent of the Church.

“If anyone should presume to contradict this definition of ours - may God prevent this happening - anathema sit.”

Who is the first to “contradict this definition of ours” ?
Every Non-Catholic protestant. Therefore:
“anathema sit.”

[/size]


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