Will Protestants be surprised when Jesus judges them according to their deeds?


#61

And they view scripture through the lens of the confessions. Lutherans do have to listen to the confessions as much as Catholics do the CCC.


#62

That article is from gotquestions.org, which supports an eternal security viewpoint. Of course they would say it is impossible to lose one’s salvation. This website is not representative of all Protestants.


#63

Ugh. OSAS and eternal security are the same thing, essentially. I’ll let JonNC speak for Lutherans. As to Anglicans, there are both Arminian-Anglicans and Calvinist-Anglicans.

Arminian Anglicans would say it is possible to lose salvation. Calvinist or Reformed Anglicans would say it is not possible to lose salvation.

Methodists are Arminians, so they believe salvation can be lost. As the website of the United Methodist Church explains:

Do United Methodists believe “once saved, always saved” or can we “lose our salvation”?

A short, but very incomplete answer, is that our Church teaches we can end up “losing” the salvation God has begun in us, and the consequence of this in the age to come is our eternal destruction in Hell. God freely grants us new birth and initiates us into the body of Christ in baptism. The profession of our faith and growth in holiness are necessary for God’s saving grace to continue its work in us, and both of these are things we must do for our love to be genuine and not compelled. We thus remain free to resist God’s grace, to revert to spiritual torpor, and possibly experience spiritual death and Hell as its consequence.

That was only the first paragraph. The whole explanation is worth a read.


#64

The Lutheran Confessions and the Bible

Scripture Is Divinely Authoritative

The average Lutheran layman today may not know any Latin, but he probably knows what the phrase sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) means. It means that we Lutherans base our theology solely on the Scriptures of God and nothing else, not tradition, not human speculation, not modern scholarship, not our experiences or feelings or anything else. Sola Scriptura is a watchword, a guide for action, for every true Lutheran, pastor or layman…


#65

The Pope represents all Catholics. Who represents all Protestants?


#67

No one. Obviously. Are we past the rhetorical comments now?


#68

What point are you making?


#69

You went out of your way to ask a rhetorical question just to make a point about Protestant unity or the lack thereof. The point I"m making is that such “contributions” to a thread aren’t really helpful in building a constructive conversation.


#70

That’s your opinion. I’m of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I’m not afraid of people disagreeing with me. I believe that disagreement is part of a healthy and constructive conversation.

One of the things I’ve noticed in my 20 years of talking to Protestants, is that there are Lutherans and there are Lutherans. There are always these differences of high church and low church with all the so-called “confessional” denominations. The high church fellows say, “Lutherans or Anglicans or add your flavor” don’t believe that. Then, you say that to a low church member of the same denomination and they blind side you with all the things that the high church fellow said they can’t believe.

That’s a fact, Jack.


#71

You can disagree in a constructive way. We can do without snappy one-liners.

One of the things I’ve noticed in my time talking to Catholics is that there are Catholics and then there are Catholics. :sunglasses:

But seriously, the same varieties found within a Protestant church can also be found among Catholics. For a recent example, just look at how different Catholics have interpreted Amoris Laetitia.


#72

“All the years I spent in Evangelical Protestantism, and I was taught that we will be judged on our works, but this judgment will be for rewards in heaven only, not for a judgment with salvation as the outcome, because salvation was assured through acceptance of Christ”

How convenient.


#73

And as such, the theology is documented in the confessions, hence the Epitome of the Formula of Concord states:
**1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.**

Every Lutheran confesses the three creeds, and understands that they understand scripture through the lens of the confessions, most notably the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism.


#74

Well, thanks. I’ve never been accused of “snappy” anything. I’m gonna have to do more of those.

Seriously, though, the 3200 word limit is teaching me how to be a bit more succinct. The “snappy” part is just you realizing you can’t respond to them.:rofl:

One of the things I’ve noticed in my time talking to Catholics is that there are Catholics and then there are Catholics. :sunglasses:

But seriously, the same varieties found within a Protestant church can also be found among Catholics. For a recent example, just look at how different Catholics have interpreted Amoris Laetitia.

Big difference. We still have one authority. Every Protestant is a pope unto himself.


#75

What are you wanting me to respond to? When you post rhetorical questions, I don’t feel obligated to respond.

Even if I acknowledged that (which I don’t necessarily), that is a distinction without a difference. Whether Catholic or Protestant, we are all autonomous, free moral agents. The Catholic Church is not immune to diversity of thought, ecclesiastical faction or doctrinal confusion.


#76

There can be differences of opinion on certain theological matters that haven’t been set in stone. Take Purgatory as an example, Latin Catholics see it as a place of purging for those who have died in grace but still have sins on their soul, whereas Eastern Catholics see it as the final stage of Theosis. These are completely legitimate theological opinions in the Church, however it is not legitimate to deny Purgatory, this is dogma that every Catholic has to accept. The moment a Catholic person rejects Purgatory is the moment that person has become a heretic and should refrain from the Eucharist until they recant of their heresy.


#77

[quote=“ltwin, post:75, topic:454499, full:true”]
What are you wanting me to respond to? When you post rhetorical questions, I don’t feel obligated to respond. [/quote]

There was only one and you didn’t have to answer it, the point was made. But you did, so thank you.

Even if I acknowledged that (which I don’t necessarily), that is a distinction without a difference.

A lot of Protestants say that. I don’t know if they are lying to themselves or actually unaware of the difference.

Whether Catholic or Protestant, we are all autonomous, free moral agents. The Catholic Church is not immune to diversity of thought, ecclesiastical faction or doctrinal confusion.

True. But Protestants do not vow to submit to the authority and Teaching of the Catholic Church. That’s why, Protestants go to one church until they disagree with the pastor. Then, they go to another one. Because the Pastor must agree with the individual Protestant’s interpretation of Scripture. That goes on until they get tired of all of them and then decide to stay at home or start their own church.

Catholics shop for a Catholic Church, but they look for people of the same age, families and the like. Not for doctrinal problems because Catholics will receive the same Doctrine in every Catholic Church.

Big difference. Is that snappy enough for ya!:innocent:


#78

Are you saying its impossible for a Protestant to submit to the teachings of his or her church? Are you saying its impossible for a Catholic to disagree with the teachings of his or her church?

Painting with quite a broad brush there aren’t you? I’m 28 and still go to the same church I was dedicated in as a child.


#79

No.

Are you saying its impossible for a Catholic to disagree with the teachings of his or her church?

No, but when they do, they sin. Whereas, when a Protestant disagrees with his church’s teachings, he is simply exercising his right to private interpretation.

Painting with quite a broad brush there aren’t you?

No.

I’m 28 and still go to the same church I was dedicated in as a child.

You’re a rare bird, aren’t you? You are actually the only Protestant that I’ve ever spoken to who has said that. How many people in your church can say the same?


#80

That’s just ridiculous. If a church’s doctrinal position is that x is a sin, then a member who does x and refuses to repent is considered by that church to be a sinner. No church allows its members to be conscientious objectors to sin.

Now different churches can disagree on what is and is not sinful. A church can determine that it will leave some decisions to the discretion of an individual’s Scripture-informed conscience because, say, the Bible and Christian tradition are not particularly clear on whether a thing is morally wrong or not.

However, when a church says something is a sin then it is a sin for everyone. Citing your own interpretation of Scripture does not change what your church believes is orthodox teaching.

Really? Are you counting denominational switching or just moving to a different town or city? You need to meet more Protestants because the assertion that all Protestants change churches like they change their shoes is laughable.


#81

And not all Catholics listen to or agree with the Pope on a range of teachings. As Catholics, that makes them wrong. When a Lutheran, which I’m not anymore, states a belief contrary to the stated doctrines in the confessions, he or she is wrong.


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