Will Protestants be surprised when Jesus judges them according to their deeds?


#82

Do you realize how anecdotal this is?


#83

So, if a Lutheran Church has a practicing homosexual pastor. And a layman considers homosexuality a sin. Does the layman sin for disagreeing with the Lutheran position on homosexuality?

You need to get our more.

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#84

And as such, the theology is documented in the confessions, hence the Epitome of the Formula of Concord states:
**1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.**

Every Lutheran confesses the three creeds, and understands that they understand scripture through the lens of the confessions, most notably the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism.

And thus, you have proven that every Lutheran has the right of private interpretation. Because if they understand their faith by the lens of these creeds, they understand that they are given the right to understand the Scriptures as they see fit.


#85

Anecdotal doesn’t mean false. Prove the statement false.

In defence of Churchhoppers
But curiously, congregants aren’t the only ones moving around. Various studies cite the tenure of the average senior pastor ranging from two and a half years to seven years or more, and the reasons pastors leave their churches frequently echo the reasons given by exiting congregants.


#86

Now that’s convoluted. If they know that, as Lutherans, they are bound to the doctrinal teachings of their tradition, found in the creeds and confessions, how do you imagine that this amounts to personal interpretation.
In fact, there are things left to personal judgement. These are known as adiaphora, things indifferent. But doctrine is not among them.
I was raised by a Lutheran pastor, went to a Lutheran college. Never once was I told I could interpret scripture on my own, come to any conclusion I wish, and call it Lutheran.
Your argument is not based in the facts of the Lutheran tradition, anymore than an allegation against Catholics that they worship Mary is a fact based on Catholic teaching. If you want people to stop doing the latter, perhaps you should refrain from the former


#87

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures,…

In fact, there are things left to personal judgement. These are known as adiaphora, things indifferent. But doctrine is not among them.

:thinking: Hard to believe based on my anecdotal evidence.

I was raised by a Lutheran pastor, went to a Lutheran college. …

Aside from this being anecdotal, it seems to conflict with the anecdotal experience of many others.

From the woman who is the center of the article, raised in the LCMS and graduated from Concordia – St. Paul:
“I didn’t want to necessarily tie myself to one specific denomination and church,” said Koscielniak, 22, who lives in St. Paul, where she attends the three churches. “They’re [denominations] important and distinctive, but in this time and age, it’s less so, especially for young people who didn’t grow up thinking their denomination was the absolutely correct one.”


#88

Anecdotal means not based on facts, but only on a narrow personal experience. Prove it right using anecdotal experiences.
Millions of Lutherans around the word are born, raised, and enter the Church Triumphant as Lutherans. Same with Anglicans, and many others. The American experience is unique in the world with “church-hopping”. But guess what? Catholics do it too. I’ve met many former Catholics who are now in one or another non-Catholic tradition.


#89

If you want to condemn poor catechesis, I agree. Catholics have the same problem.


#90

Done that.

Millions of Lutherans around the word are born, raised, and enter the Church Triumphant as Lutherans.

And millions haven’t.

Same with Anglicans, and many others.

Ditto.

The American experience is unique in the world with “church-hopping”. But guess what? Catholics do it too. I’ve met many former Catholics who are now in one or another non-Catholic tradition.

But they can’t justify their doing so by reading Scripture through the lens of Catholic Doctrine.

Big difference.


#91

Okay, so let’s break it down.
**1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

“We believe, teach and confess” means doctrine. Doctrine is not set by laity, but by the Church.
“All teachers are estimated and judged…” This is actually a restriction on personal interpretation.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

"of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them,"
Another restriction on personal interpretation.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.**

“We pledge ourselves to them.” Another statement of doctrine. These are beyond personal interpretation.
“which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church” No mention of personal interpretation here. We are bound to these as doctrine, without personal interpretation.

Sola scriptura is not synonymous with personal interpretation. Sola scriptura is the practice of using scripture as the final norm (the norm that norms but is not normed) to establish doctrine, holding doctrine accountable. Doctrine is set by the Church, not by personal interpretation.


#92

I guess you didn’t read the poll that says that even Protestant pastors church hop.

In defence of Churchhoppers

But curiously, congregants aren’t the only ones moving around. Various studies cite the tenure of the average senior pastor ranging from two and a half years to seven years or more, and the reasons pastors leave their churches frequently echo the reasons given by exiting congregants.
[/quote]


#93

And a Lutheran cannot justify an opinion by reading scripture outside the lens of Lutheran doctrine


#94

[/quote]

So, you are opposed to a Lutheran or Anglican priest becoming Catholic. Okay


#95

Lol! The point being made is that Protestants of all flavors are popes unto themselves. They decide what they want to believe and how they want to worship. They do this because they have the right of private interpretation and deny that they need anything but Scripture alone. Even their confessions tell them that this is the case.

Those Protestants who become Catholic have realized that there is an absolute Truth outside of themselves and have humbled themselves to accept the authority of the Catholic Church, because they know that the Catholic Church is led by God.


#96

Correct.

Doctrine is not set by laity, but by the Church.

Agreed.

“All teachers are estimated and judged…” This is actually a restriction on personal interpretation.

Who is judging the teachers? And what criterion are they being told to use? Let’s finish that sentence.

We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which … [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone,

Nuff said.


#97

The Church. The ones who set the doctrine. SS is a practice of the Church, a mode of hermeneutics.


#98

Yep. The final norm. The norm that norms and is not normed, used by the Church to confirm doctrine.


#99

Which “Church”? Where can I find this “Church”?


#100

How many times have Protestants come on this board and stated that the church is not a visible hierarchy? That the church is composed of the believers.

The laypeople judge the teachers based on sola scriptura.

The Lutheran Confessions and the Bible

Scripture Is Divinely Authoritative

The average Lutheran layman today may not know any Latin, but he probably knows what the phrase sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) means. It means that we Lutherans base our theology solely on the Scriptures of God and nothing else, not tradition, not human speculation, not modern scholarship, not our experiences or feelings or anything else. Sola Scriptura is a watchword, a guide for action, for every true Lutheran, pastor or layman


#101

And I think that Catholics who become continuing Anglican have humbled themselves to accept the truth of the catholic faith found in the Anglican tradition.
I value and honor your dedication to the Catholic Church, but it seems you’ve got a bit of a double standard


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