Wisconsin Sikh Community Shooting


#1

Sad story. I don't care what religion everyone is. I just think we need to stop shooting people!

abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=8762020&rss=rss-kfsn-article-8762020


#2

[quote="PattyPryor, post:1, topic:294252"]
Sad story. I don't care what religion everyone is. I just think we need to stop shooting people!

abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=8762020&rss=rss-kfsn-article-8762020

[/quote]

Unfortunately, I noticed that when tragedies and crimes like this happen, there are usually copy-cats, for what ever reason (maybe being jealous that someone else got so much attention for doing what this person always pervertedly dreamed about doing, maybe this person was just waiting for someone else to do it first, etc..)

I'm sure some people will turn this, too, into a gun control issue, but guns don't go off by themselves. This is a societal issue. Either these criminals were mentally ill and no one knew it, or something else was going on. Though sociopathy and psycopathy aren't neccessarily mental illnesses or mental illness enough to put one in an institution until they actually become a real threat to themselves and/or others. And therein lies the problem. How does one know when another is about to become a threat to themselves and/or others? But then again, as it concerns gun control, that is another question: how do metallly ill people or people with a violent history get their hands on guns? Did this guy legally buy it/them? How? Or did he still it? I'm am for limited, rational, and common sense gun control. That I do agree with, but again, this is really a societal question.

Or this could just be a coincidence and this guy just hated Sikhs. Either way, I agree with you, it is sad, and it should stop.

-Chris


#3

[quote="cmforte, post:2, topic:294252"]
Unfortunately, I noticed that when tragedies and crimes like this happen, there are usually copy-cats, for what ever reason (maybe being jealous that someone else got so much attention for doing what this person always pervertedly dreamed about doing, maybe this person was just waiting for someone else to do it first, etc..)

I'm sure some people will turn this, too, into a gun control issue, but guns don't go off by themselves. This is a societal issue. Either these criminals were mentally ill and no one knew it, or something else was going on. Though sociopathy and psycopathy aren't neccessarily mental illnesses or mental illness enough to put one in an institution until they actually become a real threat to themselves and/or others. And therein lies the problem. How does one know when another is about to become a threat to themselves and/or others? But then again, as it concerns gun control, that is another question: how do metallly ill people or people with a violent history get their hands on guns? Did this guy legally buy it/them? How? Or did he still it? I'm am for limited, rational, and common sense gun control. That I do agree with, but again, this is really a societal question.

Or this could just be a coincidence and this guy just hated Sikhs. Either way, I agree with you, it is sad, and it should stop.

-Chris

[/quote]

The last I heard about the story, the murderer was most likely a homegrown terrorist who mistook Sikhs for Muslims because of the former group's turbans, and that he may have had a 9/11 tattoo on his arm. But perhaps more details have been discovered since then.


#4

[quote="meltzerboy, post:3, topic:294252"]
The last I heard about the story, the murderer was most likely a homegrown terrorist who mistook Sikhs for Muslims because of the former group's turbans, and that he had a 9/11 tattoo on his arm. But it may be more details have been discovered since then.

[/quote]

This was my understanding from a brief news snippet as well. If it is true, then it certainly represents the terrible fruit of fear of the other, fear of Islam, and xenophobia in general.

May the lord fill men's hearts with faith, hope, and charity in this age of fear, mistrust, and anger.


#5

Has anyone ever thought that rescinding the second amendment might solve the problem of where these people get their guns from.

There have been two terrible shootings in the US within three weeks of each other.

Each gunman was armed with serious weapons which are freely available for sale.

After the first shooting in Aurora I was thinking there may not be another high profile shooting for a while but unfortunately I was wrong.

Is there no move to restrict ownership of guns in the US? Does nobody think this is a good idea?


#6

I actually think it would be a terrible idea, almost as bad as starting a debate on the 2nd Amendment in the Non-Catholic Religions forum :wink:

(there’s a similar thread in the world news forum that might be a better place for that discussion)


#7

[quote="AdamPeter, post:5, topic:294252"]
Has anyone ever thought that rescinding the second amendment might solve the problem of where these people get their guns from.

There have been two terrible shootings in the US within three weeks of each other.

Each gunman was armed with serious weapons which are freely available for sale.

After the first shooting in Aurora I was thinking there may not be another high profile shooting for a while but unfortunately I was wrong.

Is there no move to restrict ownership of guns in the US? Does nobody think this is a good idea?

[/quote]

Taking the ability to defend one's self out of the hands of innocent people is not going to solve the problem. But I do believe in some gun control, like those wiuth a violent or criminal record, those with mental illnesses, etc.. should not be able to get guns. And some states do have these types of laws. But when a person is Hell-bent on killing, they will find away, law or no law.

-Chris


#8

[quote="cmforte, post:7, topic:294252"]
Taking the ability to defend one's self out of the hands of innocent people is not going to solve the problem. But I do believe in some gun control, like those wiuth a violent or criminal record, those with mental illnesses, etc.. should not be able to get guns. And some states do have these types of laws. But when a person is Hell-bent on killing, they will find away, law or no law.

-Chris

[/quote]

But giving one a constitutional right to own a deadly weapon is surely going to increase the chances of shootings of the kind seen in Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora and now Oak Creek.


#9

[quote="AdamPeter, post:8, topic:294252"]
But giving one a constitutional right to own a deadly weapon is surely going to increase the chances of shootings of the kind seen in Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora and now Oak Creek.

[/quote]

But again, some states have laws limiting the right to own a gun. And besides that, until every police force, every military force, and every terrorist group on the planet is similarly disarmed, I will not give up the right to defend myself. There was a reason the American Founding Fathers made it a Constitutional right.

-Chris


#10

[quote="cmforte, post:9, topic:294252"]
But again, some states have laws limiting the right to own a gun. And besides that, until every police force, every military force, and every terrorist group on the planet is similarly disarmed, I will not give up the right to defend myself. There was a reason the American Founding Fathers made it a Constitutional right.

-Chris

[/quote]

The American founding Fathers were not infallible. They instituted this at a time when the USA was first in existence and guns really were needed to defend property and enforce laws.

Tell me, how would guns have helped if everyone in the Aurora Theatre had been armed?

Would they just have had a massive gunfight, shooting up the place in a paniked frenzy?


#11

[quote="AdamPeter, post:10, topic:294252"]
The American founding Fathers were not infallible. They instituted this at a time when the USA was first in existence and guns really were needed to defend property and enforce laws.

Tell me, how would guns have helped if everyone in the Aurora Theatre had been armed?

Would they just have had a massive gunfight, shooting up the place in a paniked frenzy?

[/quote]

It depends...in some states, to buy a gun you must first take a firearms class.....what makes you think that if everyone in Aurora (excluding kids, that is) had owned a gun they wouldn't have had the proper training in how to use it?

-Chris


#12

[quote="AdamPeter, post:10, topic:294252"]

Tell me, how would guns have helped if everyone in the Aurora Theatre had been armed?

[/quote]

If it was me, I would have shot back at the shooter, not in a "panicked frenzy". But then again I would have been smart enough to get the proper training, first.

-Chris


#13

[quote="AdamPeter, post:10, topic:294252"]
The American founding Fathers were not infallible. They instituted this at a time when the USA was first in existence and guns really were needed to defend property and enforce laws.

[/quote]

So you're assuming things have changed in America, then....

-Chris


#14

[quote="cmforte, post:12, topic:294252"]
If it was me, I would have shot back at the shooter, not in a "panicked frenzy". But then again I would have been smart enough to get the proper training, first.

-Chris

[/quote]

Of course, in a darkened cinema, with no prior warning, you obviously would have just shot back at the shooter because he probably was wearing a Hi-Vis jacket or something.

Obviously...

:rolleyes:


#15

[quote="AdamPeter, post:14, topic:294252"]
Of course, in a darkened cinema, with no prior warning, you obviously would have just shot back at the shooter because he probably was wearing a Hi-Vis jacket or something.

Obviously...

:rolleyes:

[/quote]

Neither of us was there, so neither really know. I guess I would have targeted where the bullets were coming from and where the flashes from gunpowder exploding came from. I don't know, I don't have the proper training and I wasn't there. Hopefully a police officer or military person can come on here and tell us how they do it.

-Chris


#16

[quote="cmforte, post:15, topic:294252"]
Neither of us was there, so neither really know. I guess I would have targeted where the bullets were coming from and where the flashes from gunpowder exploding came from. I don't know, I don't have the proper training and I wasn't there. Hopefully a police officer or military person can come on here and tell us how they do it.

-Chris

[/quote]

The point I'm trying to make is that every time there is a shooting in the US the answer seems to be to staunchly defend the second amendment as opposed to possibly exploring changing it.

When something in the constitution of a nation is causing profound harm to people its often a signal that that should be examined.


#17

[quote="AdamPeter, post:16, topic:294252"]
The point I'm trying to make is that every time there is a shooting in the US the answer seems to be to staunchly defend the second amendment as opposed to possibly exploring changing it.

We can "explore" rational, logical gun control laws, but should not "change" or take away the whole Second Amendment. Innocent and healthy adults should have the right to have the ability to defend themselves, whether against a lone shooter, a terrorist group, a foreign enemy, or a tyrannical government or an out-of-control, corrupt and abusive police force. I don't know how it is in Ireland, but there are parts of the US where it takes hours sometimes for the police to respond: Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder: 911 Operators Say It's OK to Shoot

, 14-year-old Phoenix boy shoots, nearly kills armed intruder,google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4LENN_en_US445#hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4LENN_en_US445&sclient=psy-ab&q=man%20shoots%20invader&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=864b087485322221&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=1093&bih=451,Off-Duty Officer Shoots Burglar To Death In Home Invasion
When something in the constitution of a nation is causing profound harm to people its often a signal that that should be examined.

[/quote]

"Something in the Constitution" is not harming people. Sick or evil people are harming people. There was violence and crime before there were guns.

-Chris


#18

[quote="AdamPeter, post:5, topic:294252"]
Has anyone ever thought that rescinding the second amendment might solve the problem of where these people get their guns from.

There have been two terrible shootings in the US within three weeks of each other.

Each gunman was armed with serious weapons which are freely available for sale.

After the first shooting in Aurora I was thinking there may not be another high profile shooting for a while but unfortunately I was wrong.

Is there no move to restrict ownership of guns in the US? Does nobody think this is a good idea?

[/quote]

6 people were murdered while they waited for someone with a gun to show up and stop the attack.

Disarming the victims never works.


#19

:thumbsup:

Plus, criminals don’t typically obey laws. :smiley:

-Chris


#20

[quote="AdamPeter, post:14, topic:294252"]
Of course, in a darkened cinema, with no prior warning, you obviously would have just shot back at the shooter because he probably was wearing a Hi-Vis jacket or something.

Obviously...

:rolleyes:

[/quote]

And the theatre was filled with tear gas...:rolleyes:

I just read an article on CNN titled '5 Things Gun Owners Want You to Know'. It addressed the myth of an armed civilian being able to put a stop to it.

Statistically if you use a gun in self defense even with proper training you are more likely to shoot yourself or an innocent bystander than the perpetrator. With the noise, chaos, movement, adrenaline, disorientation, etc it is just too easy to hurt an innocent. Furthermore, it makes law enforcement's job harder because they can't tell who the attacker is when bullets are flying and bodies are dropping in all directions.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.