Wisdom 2:12-20

Is Wisdom 2:12-20 a prophecy about Jesus? Please discuss.

12
Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
13
He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
14
To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15
Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.
16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
17
Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.
18
For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19
With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.
20
Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm

When I was a Southern Baptist and started to make my journey to the Catholic Church, I ran upon this passage in a Catholic Bible when I was trying to become aquainted with the Deuterocanoncals. I was blown away! I saw Jesus written all over it. This passage is so detailed that it reminds me of Psalm 22.

The Early Church Fathers noticed this passage, such as St. Cyprian in his treatise 2:14: Lactintius in his Divine Institutes:

Tyconius in the 4th century comments on 2:15 about how the unrighteous are oppressed by the sight of the righteous, "even the very sight of the righteous oppresses the unrighteous, as it is written, “Even the sight of him is a burden to us.” Not only does it oppress, it also causes him to melt away, as so the Psalm says, “The sinner will see and be angry; he will gnash his teeth and melt away. (Psalm 112:10)”

I suspect this is one of the reasons Wisdom was omitted from the Jewish canon.

No, it’s not.

[LIST]
*]It is not expressed as a prophecy - there is no formula such as “Hear the word of the LORD”, or the like, anywhere in it
*]It is applicable to Jesus, not because this is its proper sense in the context, but because what is said in it is supremely true of Him
*]There is a remarkable passage in Plato’s Republic which occurs in an argument explaining why it is better to be than to seem good, even if this were to lead to false accusation, trial, & execution. The passage is probably written with the death of Socrates in mind, but it too can be applied in a secondary yet fuller manner to Jesus.[/LIST]Here it is:
[LIST]
*]fullbooks.com/The-Republic1.html[/LIST]BOOK II.

'To do injustice is said to be a good; to suffer injustice an evil. As the evil is discovered by experience to be greater than the good, the sufferers, who cannot also be doers, make a compact that they will have neither, and this compact or mean is called justice, but is really the impossibility of doing injustice. No one would observe such a compact if he were not obliged. Let us suppose that the just and unjust have two rings, like that of Gyges in the well-known story, which make them invisible, and then no difference will appear in them, for every one will do evil if he can. And he who abstains will be regarded by the world as a fool for his pains. Men may praise him in public out of fear for themselves, but they will laugh at him in their hearts [Cp. Gorgias].

‘And now let us frame an ideal of the just and unjust. Imagine the unjust man to be master of his craft, seldom making mistakes and easily correcting them; having gifts of money, speech, strength–the greatest villain bearing the highest character: and at his side let us place the just in his nobleness and simplicity–being, not seeming–without name or reward – clothed in his justice only–the best of men who is thought to be the worst, and let him die as he has lived. I might add (but I would rather
put the rest into the mouth of the panegyrists of injustice–they will tell you) that the just man will be scourged, racked, bound, will have his eyes put out, and will at last be crucified (literally impaled)–and all this because he ought to have preferred seeming to being. How different is the case of the unjust who clings to appearance as the true reality! His high character makes him a ruler; he can marry where he likes, trade where he likes, help his friends and hurt his enemies; having got rich by dishonesty he can worship the gods better, and will therefore be more loved by them than the just.’

See also:
[LIST]
*]northwesternwinds.blogspot.com/2005/12/mirror-of-just-man.html[/LIST]

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This passage alone disproves the Protestant canon. There is not a single passage – not Psalm 22, not Isaiah 53 – that is more explicitly predicting the the life of Christ than these verses. Protestants will fumble over themselves trying to poke holes in it, trying to prove it wasn’t divinely inspired, but it’s impossible. If this isn’t a prophecy, then nothing in the Bible is.

The passage is certainly noted and drawn upon by the Gospel writers when it comes to detailing the Crucifixion, and they draw on it more explicitly than Psalm 22, even. Linguistically speaking, there are undeniable similarities which make it impossible to ignore. Many of the Fathers saw it as referring to Christ, and though I agree with the earlier comment about its arrangement and wording ruling out the author’s intent at making a prophetic statement (it is, after all, a wisdom book rather), I think like the rest of Scripture, it is very easy to see how it is wrapped up in Christ.

Then, again, neither Psalm 22 or Isaiah 11 contain this formula, yet both are acknowledged by the NT writers and the rest of the Church as clear prophecies of Jesus. The examples could be multiplied.

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Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used. (not a “New Testament” that did not yet exist)

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

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Note that the High Priest did not state nor even intend his words to be prophetic, [John 11:49-52

[FONT=Georgia]But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; 50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, 52* and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad

Butthey were.[/FONT]

Read the chapter in context. It is only about the false thinking of the wicked. In the first part, their false beleifs concerning themselves, the wicked are stated and preaches the eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, and there is no afterlife, In the second part they speak about their wrong beliefs concerning the righteous in general, that the righteous man is someone they need to oppress because the righeous man exposes their wicknesses. The last part simply is saying that the thinking of the wicked in this whole chapter is wrong. I suggest, you read this chapter in as many translations as you can find like the TEV or good news bible for example. Better yet, if you can find a recording of this chapter listen to it all in context.

This text demonstrates how WRONG the church fathers are when it comes to exegesis.

  1. I produce now the prophecy of Solomon, which speaks of Christ, and announces clearly and perspicuously things concerning the Jews; and those which not only are befalling them at the present time, but those, too, which shall befall them in the future age, on account of the contumacy and audacity which they exhibited toward the Prince of Life; for the prophet says, “The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright,” that is, about Christ, “Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraids us with our offending the law, and professes to have knowledge of God; and he calls himself the Child of God.” And then he says, “He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstains from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounces the end of the just to be blessed.” And again, listen to this, O Jew! None of the righteous or prophets called himself the Son of God. And therefore, as in the person of the Jews, solomon speaks again of this righteous one, who is Christ, thus: “He was made to reprove our thoughts, and he makes his boast that God is his Father. Let us see, then, if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him; for if the just man be the Son of God, He will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us condemn him with a shameful death, for by his own saying he shall be respected.”

newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm

Hippolytus primary error is reading verse 13 as “the Son of God”. No manuscript for this text uses the word “Son”, no manuscript uses the word “God”, and no manuscript supplies an article “the” before the word child. The correct reading is “a child of the Lord” which applies to any righteous person. I could not help but notice that the version that cama quotes reads “the child of the Lord”, and the two that I quoted correctly translates “a child of the Lord” in verse 13. This demonstrates yet another bias error in translation by catholics. Even cama’s verson has “child of the Lord”, NOT “Son of God”. Big difference.

Hippolytus failed to read this text in context.

Another error that Hippolytus commits is he assumes that “Son of God” can not apply to other humans other than Jesus.

If one beleives that the “Sons of God” in Genesis 6 is the line of Seth ( some of their own church fathers believe this ) then that is just one example of Son of God being applied to humans other than Jesus.

If I use Hippolytus eyes of misreading child to mean Son, then God called mere humans Sons of God in Psa 82:6 ( quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 ).

Jacob or Israel is God’s son in Exodus 4:22

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Solomon is God’s son

2 Samuel 7:13-14 (King James Version)

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Ephraim is God’s firstborn:

9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Adam is the son of God

Luke 3:38 (King James Version)

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

If one wants to be loose and say that child or children means Son, and that Lord should be translated God, then I can easily muliply the number of men callled “the son of god” like in,

Deuteronomy 14
1Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

Christians are called “the Sons of God”,

Romans 8:14

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Christians are called “the Sons of God”,

Romans 8:14

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 1:12

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Philippians 2:15

15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1-2

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

King David called a Son of the Lord,

Psalm 2:7

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

p067.ezboard.com/fthetruth11187frm2.showMessageRange?topicID=1574.topic

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:52
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Question for the Ladies here, are you the Son of God or simply a Child of the Lord?

They are not prophecies of Christ either; they are OT passages which - rather like the passage in Plato - have nothing to do with Him from the POV of the human composer, but, in the light of the Easter faith of the first Christians, are seen as “full-filled” in Him. Their applicability to Him is not the “proper sense” of such passages - it is what is called the “fuller” sense".

Psalm 72 is a conventional type of prayer for the king - that is its proper sense. In a fuller sense not that of the human author, it is supremely applicable to Christ. The fuller sense in such passages - such as those you mention - does not negate, but requires, the proper sense. :slight_smile:

Lots of people - & Israel - are addressed individually as “son” by God in the OT. But in the OT, the heavenly beings alone as a group are called bene Elohim, “the sons of God”. The NT use of this title for Christians may be an extension of this. bene Elohim is never used for human beings, not even kings - kings as a group are never so described.

So there seems no reason to regard the bene Elohim of Gen. 6 as anything but heavenly beings; as in all other passages where the phrase bene Elohim appears.

Citations, echoes & quotations of the OT do not make the passages referred to into prophecies, however. A passage can be used in reference to Jesus, without being a prophecy of Him.

It is important to remember that the OT is inspired Scripture. Every word in it has a purpose; God didn’t ramble on.

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clearly you did not read the scriptures I posted above.

Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

**6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. **

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

:thumbsup:

***Hi, Daniel Marsh!

…superficially it sounds very very good…

You err in thinking that Catholics do not acknowledge that Scriptures call Israel the son of God or children of God… your error is multiplied as you deny Jesus being in the Holy Scriptures and He being the Son of God.

Further, not only do you err in your interpretation but you make God a liar because you quote passages of Scriptures that must be taken on your interpretation only and Scriptures tells us a different story:

Jacob was not the first-born, it was Esau–Yahweh lied by calling Jacob (Israel) His first-born.

Ephraim is not the first-born, it was Manasseh–Yahweh lied again…

NOT!

If I allow the Holy Scriptures to determine who is the first-born and why… I (as well as anyone else) can come to understand that Yahweh chose Jacob over Esau and accorded Jacob the first-born rights and blessings; He did the same with Ephraim; and if we look back at Abraham we find that he had a son with his wife’s servant (Ishmael) and that Isaac was born much later from Sara (who had been baren)…

By merely following the strictness of the text I can only see confusion, and not simply confusion but irreconcialable confusion… I must allow God’s Holy Spirit to enlighten me so that I may understand that God is not limited by the Holy Scriptures but rather He has given them to me to guide me to the Truth: Jesus!

Please allow the Holy Spirit to guide your heart and mind so that you will subject yourself to God in humble obedience; I asure you, you will be happier knowing that it is God who makes things happen and not man who can confine God by the text of the Sacred Writings!

Maran atha!

Angel***

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Daniel, in Acts 13, this passage you put in bold is called a prophecy of Christ: “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

Christians believe that David was a prophet who predicted the Messiah in various passages of the Psalms. This passage is one of them. So you won’t be able to convince us based on the use of “Son” there that the use of “Son” in Wisdom was referring to a human. Because we believe that the “Son” of Psalm 2:7 was Christ.

I also see all of Psalm 2 as predicting the Messiah, not only verse 7.

@ Gottle of Geer/Daniel Marsh: Prophecies can and do refer to more than one event/person/concept simultaneously. Examples include the woman in Revelation (represents creation + Israel + the Church + Mary) or Jesus’ Eschatological Discourse (refers to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 + the end of the world). Similarly, the OT prophecies of Christ could and did refer to both contemporary kings of Israel and the coming King of the universe. The prophets and OT writers didn’t have to understand the full implications of what they said for their prophecies to be valid, since the ultimate author wasn’t them but God.

and that is an example of pastoral grace, as opposed to sanctifying grace.

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