"Wives submit to your husbands" and Catechism?


#1

Hello, can somebody please help me to find a passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explains/clarifies Colossians 3:18-20 and Ephesians 5:22-32 about wives being submissive to their husbands? (My husband takes this literally).
Thanks and God Bless You all


#2

I found this in the Catechism:

Marriage in the Lord

1612 The nuptial covenant between God and his people Israel had prepared the way for the new and everlasting covenant in which the Son of God, by becoming incarnate and giving his life, has united to himself in a certain way all mankind saved by him, thus preparing for "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."104

1613 On the threshold of his public life Jesus performs his first sign - at his mother’s request - during a wedding feast.105 The Church attaches great importance to Jesus’ presence at the wedding at Cana. She sees in it the confirmation of the goodness of marriage and the proclamation that thenceforth marriage will be an efficacious sign of Christ’s presence.

1614 In his preaching Jesus unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of man and woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning: permission given by Moses to divorce one’s wife was a concession to the hardness of hearts.106 The matrimonial union of man and woman is indissoluble: God himself has determined it "what therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder."107

1615 This unequivocal insistence on the indissolubility of the marriage bond may have left some perplexed and could seem to be a demand impossible to realize. However, Jesus has not placed on spouses a burden impossible to bear, or too heavy - heavier than the Law of Moses.108 By coming to restore the original order of creation disturbed by sin, he himself gives the strength and grace to live marriage in the new dimension of the Reign of God. It is by following Christ, renouncing themselves, and taking up their crosses that spouses will be able to “receive” the original meaning of marriage and live it with the help of Christ.109 This grace of Christian marriage is a fruit of Christ’s cross, the source of all Christian life.

1616 This is what the Apostle Paul makes clear when he says: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her,” adding at once: "'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church."110

1617 The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath.111 which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist. Christian marriage in its turn becomes an efficacious sign, the sacrament of the covenant of Christ and the Church. Since it signifies and communicates grace, marriage between baptized persons is a true sacrament of the New Covenant.112

The way I understand this subject is this: that the husband is to be Christ-like in loving his wife as Christ loves the Church. Wives are to submit to their husbands as we submit to the Church. It isn’t blind following – we submit to Church teaching, even sometimes when we don’t understand it completely, because we believe that Jesus established His Church and we trust it. In the same way, wives are to submit to their husbands, because they trust that their husbands will do anything and everything necessary for the good of their wives and families.

Does that help? :slight_smile:


#3

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be sharp with them."
Colossians 3:19

"To sum up: you also, each one of you, must love his wife as he loves himself; and let every wife respect her husband."
Ephesians 5:33

This is the section of the Catechism that deals with the sacrament of matrimony, hopefully it will help:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P50.HTM


#4

Submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21.


#5

Thank you so much for your research Belle and Perfect Timing. Hopefully my husband and I will read and ponder these passages tonight. A couple of days ago, we disagreed on discipline and he ordered me not to do something and I did it anyways. Later he said that he was disappointed that I didn't apologize for "being disobedient to my husband". When I asked him where that came from, he said it comes from the passage of Scriptures about 'wives be submissive to your husbands'.


#6

[quote="beafedor, post:5, topic:240754"]
Thank you so much for your research Belle and Perfect Timing. Hopefully my husband and I will read and ponder these passages tonight. A couple of days ago, we disagreed on discipline and he ordered me not to do something and I did it anyways. Later he said that he was disappointed that I didn't apologize for "being disobedient to my husband". When I asked him where that came from, he said it comes from the passage of Scriptures about 'wives be submissive to your husbands'.

[/quote]

"submit"= under the mission

Husband's mission is to love ...the definition of love is to will the good of the other, which is heaven.

Husband's job is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which is to die for her. His job is to get his wife to heaven even if it kills him.

The wife's job is to place herself under that mission. "obedience" is not in there.


#7

The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life. CCC 1601

My interpretation of Ephesians 5:22-32 can be summed up below.

As men, you are to die for your family -- love your wife as Christ loved the Church. Sacrificial love. As women, we are to submit to the mission (support the mission, translated) of the man, which is to serve the family.

The word "submission" can be broken down into 'sub'-meaning 'under'- and 'mission'- something a person is commissioned to do. So, in this case, a woman who submits to her husband is putting herself 'under the mission' of her husband. And what is the mission of her husband?

"Husbands, LOVE YOUR WIVES!"

A wife is to let her husband love her as he loves his own body, and to sacrifice himself for her as Christ did for His Church. St. Paul also begins this particular section of his letter to the Ephesians by the call for all of us to be submissive to each other.


#8

There is some excellent advice in posts #6 & #7.

You might wish to point out to your husband that the Catholic wedding vows don't mention anything about "obeying":

*"I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life." * These vows are said by BOTH the husband and wife.

It sounds as if your husband has a mistaken notion of the idea of Christian marriage. We are neither Fundamentalists nor Muslims, and the Catholic vision of marriage is that of the relationship between Christ and His Church.


#9

Casti Connubii has a nice summary of the situation.
27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband's every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.


#10

[quote="agapewolf, post:6, topic:240754"]
"submit"= under the mission

Husband's mission is to love ...the definition of love is to will the good of the other, which is heaven.

Husband's job is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which is to die for her. His job is to get his wife to heaven even if it kills him.

The wife's job is to place herself under that mission. "obedience" is not in there.

[/quote]

Douay-Rheims translates it as "subject". How do you interpret that?

Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.

Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.


#11

sub is still under.
This is from theology of the body.


#12

[quote="trinichiqn, post:7, topic:240754"]

The word "submission" can be broken down into 'sub'-meaning 'under'- and 'mission'- something a person is commissioned to do. So, in this case, a woman who submits to her husband is putting herself 'under the mission' of her husband. And what is the mission of her husband?

[/quote]

Simply because a word can be broken down into two parts, and each part have a meaning, does not mean that the word put together has the same meaning. The sum is greater than its parts, in other words. It might help to understand the origin of the word, but this shouldn't take place of the actual meaning. In no dictionary I've checked does "submit" translate to "be under the mission". Furthermore, it comes from the Latin "submittere". Sub: to place under, mittere: to send.


#13

[quote="ChiRho, post:12, topic:240754"]
Simply because a word can be broken down into two parts, and each part have a meaning, does not mean that the word put together has the same meaning. The sum is greater than its parts, in other words. It might help to understand the origin of the word, but this shouldn't take place of the actual meaning. In no dictionary I've checked does "submit" translate to "be under the mission". Furthermore, it comes from the Latin "submittere". Sub: to place under, mittere: to send.

[/quote]

What matters is how the church interprets and teaches about the scripture.

And you give a great example of it with the latin " to send"...as in a MISSION. That is what is done at church...a commissioning...


#14

[quote="agapewolf, post:13, topic:240754"]
What matters is how the church interprets and teaches about the scripture.

And you give a great example of it with the latin " to send"...as in a MISSION. That is what is done at church...a commissioning...

[/quote]

You're still essentially committing the fallacy of composition by ignoring the actual definitions of subject and submit. I could also break down many other words, saying that that when "understand" is written, the meaning is to stand under someone. Of course this doesn't make sense because, even though the two words have their own separate meanings, together there is a different meaning. "Understand" is generally taken to mean "to comprehend" in addition to several other things which do not involve being positioned at a lower altitude relative to another person.

The Church interpretation of course matters, what I'm disputing is that the Church is so simplistic in its interpretation as you have presented it.


#15

I suggest you also read Pope JP II's Letter to Women. He sums it up nicely in there also.


#16

:tsktsk::juggle::juggle: Can't wait to see the replies


#17

[quote="beafedor, post:1, topic:240754"]
Hello, can somebody please help me to find a passage in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explains/clarifies Colossians 3:18-20 and Ephesians 5:22-32 about wives being submissive to their husbands? (My husband takes this literally).
Thanks and God Bless You all

[/quote]

Dixieagle and Serap have posted what I would have. Perhaps you can also read 1 Corinthians 11-12.


#18

[quote="ChiRho, post:12, topic:240754"]
Simply because a word can be broken down into two parts, and each part have a meaning, does not mean that the word put together has the same meaning. The sum is greater than its parts, in other words. It might help to understand the origin of the word, but this shouldn't take place of the actual meaning. In no dictionary I've checked does "submit" translate to "be under the mission". Furthermore, it comes from the Latin "submittere". Sub: to place under, mittere: to send.

[/quote]

This is exactly what I was going to say! I'm an English teacher and the origin of the word "submission" has nothing to do with being under a mission. It was originally used as a military term for "ranking under". I think the whole "under his mission" explanation makes submitting sound easier and makes the pill easier to swallow. However, it is not the meaning of the word and it drives me crazy that it's always defined that way when this discussion comes up.


#19

[quote="mini_me640, post:18, topic:240754"]
This is exactly what I was going to say! I'm an English teacher and the origin of the word "submission" has nothing to do with being under a mission. It was originally used as a military term for "ranking under". I think the whole "under his mission" explanation makes submitting sound easier and makes the pill easier to swallow. However, it is not the meaning of the word and it drives me crazy that it's always defined that way when this discussion comes up.

[/quote]

Did you not read the above post that said "mittere" is "sent"? Why is YOUR definition the correct one?

The dictionary definitions today accommodate common understandings of words. Not necessarily what the actual meanings are.

The church, in her wisdom, uses words in a very specific way and applies them in specific ways....that don't always stay true to the commonly held understanding of the word. The church actually has invented words "incardinate" being one.

such as referring to Mary as "coredemtrix". This is not applying the word "co" as in "co chairman". It's used differently and interpreted differently.

Explaining submission in this way is not dumbing it down, nor making it an easier pill to swallow because the job is more difficult than what originally thought. While the word submit may not originate the way it is explained (and I never claimed the meaning was from the origin--- but it turns out from the Latin as explained here it IS!!!!!) that never the less this is what is meant by the passage, as explained by Theology of the Body.


#20

The dictionary definitions today accommodate common understandings of words. Not necessarily what the actual meanings are.

The church, in her wisdom, uses words in a very specific way and applies them in specific ways....that don't always stay true to the commonly held understanding of the word. The church actually has invented words "incardinate" being one.

such as referring to Mary as "coredemtrix". This is not applying the word "co" as in "co chairman". It's used differently and interpreted differently.

Explaining submission in this way is not dumbing it down, nor making it an easier pill to swallow because the job is more difficult than what originally thought. While the word submit may not originate the way it is explained (and I never claimed the meaning was from the origin--- but it turns out from the Latin as explained here it IS!!!!!) that never the less this is what is meant by the passage, as explained by Theology of the Body.

What I offered was not the definition, but the etymology (origin) of the word. I fully understand how the Church uses words. In Casti Conubbi, submission in marriage IS explained as obedience. Not blind, slave-like obedience but "honorable and trusting obedience".

At any rate, I was not arguing with the idea of the wife being "under the mission" of her husband; I was simply stating that it is not correct to call that the definition of the word submission. I maintain that it is often explained that way because it is a more pleasant way to look at things (if I'm under his mission, and his mission is to take care of me, I'm helping him help me, not making myself subject to him) than something along the lines of obedience. Again, I'm not saying the concept is wrong; just that it is not accurate to call that the definition of the word.


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