Women in Islam


#1

www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhviran/htm

If you want to know what it’s really like for women in Islam read this horrifying article. There is no theology of the body in Islam.

Go to the Donna Hughes page. Normally I don’t agree with feminists, but this article shows the appalling abuse of women that is common in Islamic countries.


#2

Dead link.


#3

Here is another link dealing with women in Islam.

faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/Women_in_Islam.htm


#4

This might be the page the OP was hoping to link to.

uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/pubfund.htm


#5

"The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven."
Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section ‘Duties of husband and wife’, Hadith No. 61

“The prophet said: ‘When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.’”(Sahih hadith, chapter 558)

Also; the issue of female genital mutilation…

Sheikh al-Badri is an Islamic proponent of female genital mutilation. The Haddiths give some indication that it is approved; certainly it is not condemned even though it was a practice at the time of Muhammed.

Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251:

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.


#6

Actually that last Hadith is a fabrication.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6176340.stm


#7

I must have missed the bit saying it is a fabrication:confused:
Can you point out where it says this?

Read the end of your own source
"Another leading cleric, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, said that Islam did not require the practice but some clerics felt it was allowed."
(Ibid.)

This is in perfect agreement with what I posted.

I have not stated that it is a practice particular to Islam, but Muhammed did allow it.

It said earlier in your source…
“In recent years, Muslim scholars have spoken out against female genital mutilation, but some had insisted that while it was not required by religion, it was not prohibited.”
(Ibid.)


#8

Do you actually want to learn, or do you want to argue? I’m rather flabbergasted how you managed to twist an article with the heading “Muslim scholars from around the world have called for female genital mutilation to be banned and those who carry it out to face punishment.” into saying that FGM is approved of in Islam.

Firstly, the article does indirectly say that that saying is a fabrication by saying top religious authorities said religion offered no justification for it; and the Grand Mufti of Egypt saying that no examples of the practice could be found in the Prophet Muhammad’s life. Do you think all these scholars who’ve studied Islam for decades have all missed that saying and you’re the only one who’s found it? Or is it more reasonable that they *are *aware of it, but through rigourous analysis of it decided that its validity is so weak it isn’t worth mentioning. Firstly the Hadith has a broken chain of transmitters, none of whom were alive during the Prophet’s time (so they could hardly have been eyewitnesses to him saying it), and all of chains (suspiciously) have the same man in them, who can’t be used as evidence. Also the fact the there of dozens of authentic Hadith which mention circumcision, and all of them clearly say that it’s for males and make no mention of any female equivalent. In contradiction to all these just one dubious Hadith that appears only in only one Hadith collection (whom the collector himself later said was ‘not sound’) saying circumcision is for females too. Doesn’t this strike you as rather strange and worth investigating further?

The quotes you’ve pulled out don’t say anything to support FGM, they just say that in the past some clerics have not declared it as forbidden, and instead said that it was not a religious issue and it was up to the health experts to decide whether such operations should be carried out or not. No different from Christianity’s view on the matter (I don’t think it says anywhere in the Bible that FGM is forbidden). But now we have an official verdict on this, presumably the religious clerics have consulted the opinion of health experts on it, and have declared it as forbidden and that those who carry it out must be punished.


#9

Even the World Health Organisation notes that many do so because they think it’s religious…
"religious reasons: Some Muslim communities, however, practise FGM in the belief that it is demanded by the Islamic faith. The practice, however, predates Islam."
who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

One can do both.

I’m flabbergasted that you would twist my post around into saying that. Nowhere did I make such a claim about the FGM think-tank supporting it.

Let’s go over this one more time.
I said that Islam is not against female genital mutilation. I cited an Hadith (not necessarily a strong one) about Muhammad simply advocating a less severe form of this.

You cite a newspaper article to say that this hadith is a fabrication.

Nowhere in your cited site does it make this claim. Nowhere. You misrepresent your own source. Then I note that IN YOUR SOURCE some clerics think that is allowable. I don’t maintain that they are representative of any particular school of thought, or any group, even the FGM think-tank. Simply that this evidence backs up MY contention that Islam is not against female genital mutilation. Your source agrees with ME.

No that’s not it at all. There’s a total difference between saying

“This is required by Islam"
and
"This is allowed by Islam”

They are saying that it is not REQUIRED. This does not mean it is FORBIDDEN.

"The Al-Azhar University in Cairo has issued several fatwas endorsing FGC, in 1949, 1951 and 1981"
Gad-al-hak: Khitan al banat, pp. 3119-3125, in Sami A. Aldeeb, Mutiler, Institut Suisse de Droit Comparé, 1993, p. 191, accessed by Wiki on 25 December 2006

Same thing. And it also works that things that happened in his life are NOT ALLOWED too. Like temporary marriage (as according to Sunni Islam). Simply twisting one thing to mean another is not helpful to your case.

There’s heaps of examples in Islam where something was allowed for a particular group for a particular time, such as the fact that Muhammad was allowed nine wives. This thing allowed for him is not allowed for you. I would be wrong if I suggested that just because he was allowed nine wives, so are you.

One fundamental of the Islamic law is that what is not prohibited is allowed
minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm

For the record this site says that medical evidence shows FGM is harmful and therefore recommends that the laws in Islam against harmful practice now be called upon. At best this acknowledges that it was ‘allowed in Islam’ until now. Which is what I stated.

However, given that there is medical evidence that suggests male circumcision is harmful, I am keen to see what Islam says about this.

It is interesting also to note that those in Islam who are against it offer the following Koranic verse…
“We have indeed created man[kind] in the best of moulds” (Al-Tin 95:4)
It could also be used to argue against male circumcision.

con’t…


#10

Given your own article also recognises that there’s a number of clerics who think that it’s allowed I don’t see you have a point.

This is your best argument and one you should have begun with. I am happy to acknowledge that this is not a strong hadith. However given its apparent ‘weakness’ there’s still a number of senior Moslems that accept it, and have always accepted it. Your argument should be with them and not with me.

Doesn’t exclude anything either! The male orientation of Islam is oft noted. However as below you’re on about a limiting of Christian belief to the Bible, what Koranic verses do you know of that support male circumcision

I invite you to contact these errant Moslems and write to them and tell them to stop portraying Islam in such a way, for, they’re expert opinion says that female genital mutilation is allowable in Islam.

They say it’s allowed.

It’s not a ‘religious issue’ insofar as it doesn’t take away from your being a Moslem if you don’t do it. But it’s still allowed in Islam.

Totally different kettle of fish. The Bible (for Catholics and Orthodox) is not the be-all and end-all of what is Christianity. You’d be making a false comparison

More power to them. Now if only it was binding on all Moslems. I await with eagerness their abject condemnation of all their fellow Moslems who partake of this evil practice; as I see you doing now :slight_smile: Ooops! I guess you all are happy to only tell westerners this :wink:

However, your ‘religious opinion’ is not final…
"Campaigners for a ban on female circumcision have been shocked by the way in which, they claim, the Egyptian government has now backtracked on the issue. After President Hosni Mubarak promised to introduce legislation to stop the operation the health minister, Dr Ali Abdul Fatah Omaar, has now declared: “We have no plans to ban this operation by introducing legislation, but we are looking at ways for it to be carried out by qualified doctors and under proper medical supervision.” He made this statement after he emerged from a meeting with Sheikh Jad El Haq of Al Azhar, who is against any ban on the operation.

The issue came to prominence last September, when the CNN television news channel broadcast a programme featuring a young girl being circumcised by a barber in Cairo. The screening could not have happened at a worse time for the Egyptian government. It took place during the controversial international conference on population, which was held in Cairo in spite of opposition by powerful Islamic groups within the country and a boycott by some Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia."
bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6971/12

Thus you misrepresent again, for it’s not a final declaration of Islam, at all.


#11

thats mean!! instead of women versus men it could be blonde hair versus brown hair or 4 toes versus 5 webbed feet verses non webbed feet up-turned nose versus down turned nose

or butter side up versus butter side down bread people!


#12

What’s mean? Who are you responding to?


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