"Works" Salvation? Part 2


#1

Not so Craig…The New Testament teaches that without works faith is dead.

You can pick verses from all over the place to try support your position, but when the issue is studied in the full context of the New Testament…the Catholic belief surfaces as the one that is the real New Testament teaching…

Let go of your insecurity blanket Craig and embrace what is there…not what you wish was there.
Pax tecum,


#2

7: Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8: If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!
9: If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10: even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11: If I say, "Let only darkness cover me, and the light about me be night,"
12: even the darkness is not dark to thee, the night is bright as the day; for darkness is as light with thee.
13: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb. (Psalm 139)

You can run…but :slight_smile:


#3

[LEFT]Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter XVI:[/LEFT]

Of Good Works
I. Good works are only such as God has commanded in His holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.
II. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren,adorn the profession of the Gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries,and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.
III. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
IV. They who, in their obedience, attain to the greatest height which is possibly in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
V. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins, but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants: and because, as they are good, they proceed from His Spirit, and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God’s judgment.
VI. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in God’s sight; but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God: and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.|

Any problem with that from either side?
I think so…


#4

Sounds fine to me. What denom is this from? Sorry if that is a stupid question:o


#5

We are never justified when/ we go against the moral law. I have experienced this first hand in my personal life. When i go against some commandment (say i sin against charity), i always pay dearly, though i may not always see the consequences of my sin right away (or at all :eek: :frowning: )… Sometimes i see consequences much further down the road… But in any case, Jesus, when asked how to get into Heaven, did not say anything about accepting him as “Lord and Savior” (though i’m sure he wants us to do that :slight_smile: .
He said to obey the commandments…
Maybe this is why the Church teaches that others outside the Catholic Church and even outside of Christianity can be saved… (There really are those who have not heard of Jesus or if they have, don’t know much about him. their ignorance is not their own fault and therefore, they can be saved. God loves ALL his children, not jus Christians…).


#6

The Westminster Confession of Faith is the doctrinal backbone of many Reformed, in particular, Presbyterian denominations.

Here’s Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith


#7

Faith alone can never overcome the fact that God will judge our works; this is a stumbling block for many who believe in it. Those who do so either ignore the Judgment passages which clearly shows that God’s basis for Judgment is works, or else make loopy interpretations to try and get around it. Of course, the loopier it gets, the more incoherent and untenable it becomes, so in the end faith alone collapses because even its own adherents cannot fully justify it without ignoring what Scripture plainly says.


#8

…Therefore we are glorified and magnified, not because of ourselves, or because of our own works, or the for the righteous deeds that we performed, but by HIS will. And we also, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by means of ourselves, nor by our own will or understanding or godliness or works,which we have done in holiness of heart; but by the faith through which the Almighty God has justified all those believing from the beginning…

Clement of Rome


#9

I don’t see anything here that is against Catholic teaching; indeed, it is Christ’s will that our works should be made gracious. If not for His will, then those would be nothing. That is the gist of what Pope St. Clement I said. So, no go there. And funny, you still ignore Judgment.


#10

Thank you:thumbsup:


#11

Hi,
Ive seen this stated several times before but I will state it again.

We are justified by faith which means we are saved, in other words heaven bound.

We are then judged by our works-not judged as to whether or not we are going to make it in to heaven or not but by what works we did for Christ after salvation. Plus it is not necessarily the works we do but the motivation behind them.

In other words we are being judged for our works and the outcome of this judgement will be rewards in heaven or not. If every deed we did was for the glorifying of God we will be richly rewarded in heaven. If most of the deeds we did were for selfish motivation we will not receive as many rewards, but we will still be in heaven.

I dont know how all this works and I dont think about it too much. We are not told what the rewards are. I just try to have the right motivation when serving God.:smiley:


#12

[quote=Milliardo]Faith alone can never overcome the fact that God will judge our works; this is a stumbling block for many who believe in it. Those who do so either ignore the Judgment passages which clearly shows that God’s basis for Judgment is works, or else make loopy interpretations to try and get around it. Of course, the loopier it gets, the more incoherent and untenable it becomes, so in the end faith alone collapses because even its own adherents cannot fully justify it without ignoring what Scripture plainly says…

…And funny, you still ignore Judgment.
[/quote]

The Christian who abides in Christ, does not come into judgmentJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That is because all of his transgressions have been forgiven, and the debt owed for those transgressions has been cancelled, having been nailed to the cross; that was the practice at some crucifixions—the nailing on the cross of the charges against the one crucified.Colossians 2:13-14

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions,

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.The judgment of works for the one who abides in Christ determines his reward, or lack thereof. He is not condemned on the basis of works. :shrug:


#13

I agree. As a Protestant I had problems with “Faith alone.” I thought I could support it, but then I realized I was cherry-picking verses. As I read the Bible from cover to cover, it’s theme was that we **are **judged by our works.


#14

[quote=contramundum7]We are never justified when/ we go against the moral law.
[/quote]

That is a Catholic teaching, and that is why Catholics believe that they can lose their justification/salvation.

The corollary to not being good enough to earn salvation, is not being bad enough to lose it.

That is because it is God who is at work in the Christian to work and to will (Php 2), and because the Christian is kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:3).

If you can lose justification/salvation, that can only be because it is based upon your performance, be it negatively, or positively; either way, it is your performance that is in view.

[quote=contramundum7]Maybe this is why the Church teaches that others outside the Catholic Church and even outside of Christianity can be saved… (There really are those who have not heard of Jesus or if they have, don’t know much about him. their ignorance is not their own fault and therefore, they can be saved. God loves ALL his children, not jus Christians…).
[/quote]

That is a false assumption; namely, that the omnipotent God of the universe is impotent when it comes to getting the preaching of the Gospel to those He intends to save.


#15

Not only Catholics teach this. There are a lot of Protestants who are Arminian, not Calvinist.


#16

Hey,

Thanks for making that more clear then I did.:o


#17

Yes and it is sad really:(


#18

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.


#19

This thread gets closed at 1000 posts.

There has been some excellent discussion (as well as some of the usual). I suggest people give some thought to the impasses and see how we can get past them on future threads. There are some things, maybe, that we’ve learned. Some of this thread has been repetitious.

Two questions:

Are we talking past each other?

Are we saying the same things but using different words?


#20

**This statement is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in the last verses of Matthew, Chapter 25. ** Are you above Him? I’ll say it yet again. Read first the words of Christ and keep His teachings in mind when you read the rest of the Bible, especially Paul. Maybe you’ll come to the proper understanding of salvation.


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