World War II Isn't Quite Over for Poland and Ukraine


#1

bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-13/world-war-ii-isn-t-quite-over-for-poland-and-ukraine

I certainly found this interesting.

Last week, the upper house of the Polish parliament, the Senate, recommended that the lower house, the Sejm, pass a resolution describing the Volhynian events as genocide. Jaroslaw Kaczynski, leader of the ruling Law and Justice party, has promised that the Sejm would comply; he can probably be trusted on that since his party dominates the parliament.

The Sejm has long hesitated to do this. In a 2009 resolution, it used a milder formula: “ethnic cleansing with the characteristics of genocide.” Attempts to toughen it were shot down by the previous centrist government. Former Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski argued that though the massacre had all the markings of genocide, saying so would weaken Ukraine’s recent pro-European bent.

He had good reasons to think so: Since the “Revolution of Dignity” in 2013-2014, the veneration of Bandera and his nationalist collaborators has become part of the new Ukrainian ideology that has helped unite the country against the Russian aggression in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. To some of the volunteer battalions fighting in the east, Bandera is an indisputable hero: All he and his supporters did was in the cause of national liberation. Last year, the Ukrainian parliament passed a law that made it illegal to “disrespect” the memory of UPA fighters. Last week, as part of its “decommunization” policy that envisages the removal of Soviet statues and symbols and the mass renaming of towns and streets, the Kiev city council voted unanimously to rechristen the capital city’s Moskovsky Prospekt (Moscow Avenue) after Bandera.

I thought the Giedroyc doctrine would prevail.


#2

Today we can only pray for the victims of the Polish-Ukrainian confrontation.
The people of both nations are open for forgiveness and reconciliation.
I think we have the same enemy who tries to divide our nations, seeks to break the wounds of the past, and tries to destroy our common European future.
Being outside of Europe is the worst scenario for Poland, and as we see - also for Ukraine.
The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Patriarch Sviatoslav in one of his statements reminds the words of St. John Paul II, about the compassion and forgiveness as a healing balm “, which can improve our historical memory and to heal the wounds of the past”.
At the time when the church leaders proposing to establish a common day of remembrance and requiems for the victims of our past, and make а peace moves, some destructive forces due to strong media resources try again to make enmity between two nations.


#3

Russia fanning Ukraine-Poland hostilities over Volyn tragedy – Yukhnovsky
zik news)
zik.ua/en/news/2016/06/30/russia_fanning_ukrainepoland_hostilities_over_volyn_tragedy__yukhnovsky_712535


#4

It would seem fair if you wish other countries to own up to crimes or to state them as such in their historical records that you follow a simple rule. Do not then sweep your own under the carpet and view them as merely suitable for study by “historians and researchers”.Or attempt to argue it was not really us at all mate but some naughty people pretending to be us doing these horrible things.


#5

It seems that even here on this thread you’re already a historian who knows all the contexts of what was happening then.


#6

The thread is not about me, you have been asked before to avoid personal remarks. Please abide by forum rules and discuss the subject and not me.

I am well aware of the massacres cited in the OP and the role certain organisations played in them. This is obviously feeding into the ire brewing between the two nations.


#7

I can not argue about what did not understand until the end but I think unfortunately, in Ukraine there are forces that work on the destructive politics, and such politics is beneficial to the Kremlin…
What disgusts me ever its how often the real culprits are historically skillfully hide their guilt, and even force the victims to take the blame on themselves. Even the two victims are obliged to feel guilty but the real culprits whenever skillfully conceal their crimes. It goes on and on throughout history.
I think we can call them the children of Cain. It’s hard to find a crime(genocide, massacre) which does not involve the children of Cain as ringleaders.
Of course too early to take stock of what has happened in Ukraine but that’s why I think that the Kurds for example (who dream about their own independent and democratic state) should very carefully weigh their firends( well-wishers) and their enemies. On the one hand there are the nationalists with their romantic dreams, and on the other hand there are those children of Cain , for whom it is important to turn the liberation movement into a protracted civil conflict, that murders, destruction and war, would be - the longer the better. These are the best times for the children of Cain, for the Barons-money launderers, for arms dealers, for all sorts of Shaylock’s (the human material traders)
Unfortunately, the story is often repeated.
But we should not forget that the Saviour foretold the wars and destructions at the end times. (( Scripture must be fulfilled, but the mission of peacekeepers is to make peace.


#8

My mother had a saying common in our country, “say what you mean and mean what you say”. Let us stop using these codewords like ‘sons of Cain, Shylocks and Khazar’. Which group is actually meant or implied when these terms are used?


#9

They the conspiratorial sects.
Whether there are Jews among them?
I would say not-Jews but -Yids.
Because of these Yids the Jews, Poles, Ukrainians… suffered especially in the 20th century.


#10

Sad to see the problem of anti-semitic attitudes still persists in parts of the Ukraine (as it sadly does in Russia also it must be said), a woeful legacy.


#11

It’s easy to right off Ukrainian hostilities toward the Jews as simple Anti-Semitism
I always thought that myself until I actually studied the circumstances
Try not to have a post WWII guilt cloud your rationality
I am neither Ukranian ,Pole ,Jew ,or Russian
My DNA says I have some Jewish blood not surprising for someone whose ancestors come from the former Papal States .
I am a geneoligist and have done family histories for my son-In-law who claimed he was Ukrainian on his father’s side and a man from our geneology club who was Jewish
As it turned out their families were near neighbors in the area of Galaica in what is now Poland.
Apparently ethnic Poles,Ukrainian ,and Jewish residents lived peacefully together for hundreds of years. The Slav’s,mostly small farmers ,and the Jews typically tradesmen.
My subject was from a long line of Tailors.
The Ukrainian and Jewish immigrants listed their place of birth as Austria,since the Ukraine did not exist they listed their nationality as Ruthenian.
The treaty of Versailles ceded this area to Poland in its partition of the Austro-Hungarian empire
What was formerly three Germanized nationalities were now part of Nationalitic state
apparently the emergance of the Poles as top dog did not sit well and there were a stepped up US emigration from the now second class Jew and Ukrainian.
Some claim Polish rule was harsh I don’t know but in any event it was a bitter pill to swallow
The real Problem occurred when the German’s and Russians partitioned Poland in 1939
The Russian Communist had a strong hatred for the Ethnic Ukrainians.
They apparently begin a campaign to exterminate them. Various sources claim as many as 400,000 Ukrainians disappeared. (Ethnic Ukrainians number 2-3 million )The carnage was only stopped when the Nazi’s invaded .
That the Germans were viewed in a more favorable light than were all obliged to have ,is not surprising unless you think this whole story is a fabrication
I don’t know if their stories of genocide are totaly true.
What I do know is there was little if any anti-Semitism for hundreds of years and then peaceful farmers were radicalized.
Since the Ukrainians had been loyal citizens of the Hapsburgs many spoke German .they were not viewed in the same class as Poles or Russians ,in fact the hatreds born of the recent occupation could be used to their advantage.
You ask how does hatred of the Communist translate into hated of Jew and Pole
In the mind of many ,Jew and Communist were synonyms .They saw their former neighbors as accomplices in the Soviet attemp at their demise.
The hatreds that endures, are not without cause. I’m an historian offering the alternate view of what happened… I don’t judge


#12

Try not to let anti-communist propaganda from clouding your rationality.

The treaty of Versailles ceded this area (Galicia) to Poland in its partition of the Austro-Hungarian empire

The Treaty of Versailles had nothing to do with the territories of eastern Poland. You are probably thinking of the Treaty of Riga in 1921 where Poland acquire Western Belorussia and Western Ukraine from Russia. Poland acquired control over territories where the majority of the population were not ethnic Poles, as the demarcation line that distinguished between areas that had a ethnic composition with a majority of Poles is the Curzon line. Poland acquired territory 250 km east of the Curzon line. The Polish Second Republic instituted a policy of Polanization in those territories against the interests of the inhabitants.

Some claim Polish rule was harsh I don’t know but in any event it was a bitter pill to swallow

Yes, here is an example:

Krivoshein described the great joy with which the Belorussian inhabitants of Brest greeted the Soviet forces as they approached the city [after the “invasion” by the Soviet Union in September 1939]:

(Original text in Cyrillic)

Translated:

[quote]
We drive to the outskirts, the streets clogged with people, congratulations, joy, tears. The tanks have stopped, it is impossible to pass. People are climbing right on the tanks, kissing, hugging children, giving us apples, watermelons, milk - well, in a word, everything. People with red banners and slogans: “Down with bourgeois Poland”, “Long live the Soviet Union - the liberator of the Belorussian people from the yoke of the Polish pans {gentry}!” From the windows balconies of many homes hang the whole lengths of red cloth. An old peasant in bast shoes and tattered peasant’s overcoat climbed upon my tank. At length, in peasant fashion and in detail, he told me about the bitter lot of Belorussians in Poland of the pans.

Another speaker, an old worker, said that in the Poland of the pans, to get a job it was not enough to have the qualifications of an expert mechanic. They also demanded a certificate of loyalty from the police, a priest’s certification that you had taken confession, and a recommendation of the fascist organization “Sagittarius” (Strzelec). Then a student from the senior class climbed up on the tank and with tears in his eyes shouted that they would no longer allow themselves to be whipped with rods and beaten with rulers.

  • A meeting like this is proof that people are glad to see us, that they consider us to be great friends, I said. It is very good. Now let us prepare the people for the transit of German units out of the city. Please locate the conductor of our orchestra and tell him that I command him to make no less noise than the Germans.

[/quote]

pg. 330-332 of Blood Lies

The real Problem occurred when the German’s and Russians partitioned Poland in 1939
The Russian Communist had a strong hatred for the Ethnic Ukrainians.

No, Poland wasn’t partitioned. The Soviet military intervention (often described as an invasion) after the German invasion of Poland was to prevent the Germany Army from claiming territory up to the Soviet Union’s western borders. Moreover, the land the CCCP reclaimed was mostly to the east of the Curzon line, with the exception that the CCCP got Białystok and Eastern Galicia.

Here is the text of the “Secret Protocol”:

Secret Additional Protocol.

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.
In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Neither the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany had any clear intention of liquidating the Polish state as stated in Article II. Furthermore, the CCCP didn’t even get regions designated by Article II, since they only reached the Bug River, not the Vistula. Note that it says “sphere of influence” not territorial claims. To prevent conflict, powers generally have to acknowledge other power’s sphere of influence and not encroach upon it. For instance, the Soviet Union did not involve itself in the Greek civil war or in revolutionary movements in Western Europe in the immediate aftermath of World War II.

Greece in the end was funded by the US, through the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan and joined NATO while the insurgents were demoralized by the bitter split between the Soviet Union’s Joseph Stalin, who wanted the war ended, and Yugoslavia’s Josip Broz Tito, who wanted it to continue.[13] Tito was committed to helping the Greek Communists in their efforts, a stance that angered Stalin, as he had recently agreed with Winston Churchill not to support the Communists in Greece, as documented in their Percentages Agreement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War


#13

And my family are made up of Irish, Russian, Ukrainian and Jewish individuals, many of the people in the latter three groups were there when it happened and are aware of all the above which is basic history.


#14

Anti-Semitic rhetoric in both countries is promoted by the Jews themselves.
This helped very strongly for Jewish emigration to Israel (a record number of Jews left for Israel.)and the worst thing that the this sect who lives as a state within a states have several options to start World War III. This sect some times is gathering in New York in Tel Aviv. They can do a lot having so powerful connections.
In Ukraine, preparation for war was a very long time.
I think that all that is connected with the anti-Semitic rhetoric is directly related to the Jewish moneybags who deliberately led to the military option. The same picture with radical parties is in the European countries. And it helps a lot of Jewish emigration to Israel.
Marginal political parties with fascist direction that caused revulsion and contempt among inteligentsia people, started winning the elections and they were constantly spinning on expensive TV channels. Naturally big money brought these political clowns to the power. Now we have already several years of war, the militarization of the country, and a screaming need for arms offers a great war in the future.
I think in a few years will be a great war where the poor will fight for the sake of a few rich.(why I say this, because the social agenda in this bloodthirstiness is not even close. There is only the impoverishment of the population and the loss of territories.)
While here I am watching the Ukrainian news, today 8 people dead and 15 seriously wounded, 5 had been killed yesterday. Such news comes every day for several years.
Media changed the minds of Russian and Ukrainian people. We have lived up to the fact that, we will rejoice if we’ll get more weapons.
I think due to the fact that if Europe’s brewing with anti-Israeli sentiment, Europe’s best times are probably already behind.
If this sect will manage to ruin the EU, then for Eastern European countries there will be a very hard time, in existential sense…


#15

As another poster would say, “They are just too naughty for words”.


#16

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.