Worrying beliefs about being saved.


#1

I came across this today
christiandoctrine.net/seeking_god/is_god_calling_you_web.htm

I’d like your thoughts on these quotes
"no person can seek God unless He places such a desire in his/her heart to start with."
and
***"***Basically, only God can save us. We do not have free will – free will is a myth invented by men to make themselves feel more important than they are. This means no person can choose to be saved."
This guy seems to make alot of statements without backing them up.

Matt


#2

I suppose that’s called Calvinism. :cool: They have some interesting arguments to support their claim.


#3

[quote=english_matt]I came across this today
christiandoctrine.net/seeking_god/is_god_calling_you_web.htm

I’d like your thoughts on these quotes
"***no person can seek God unless He places such a desire in his/her heart to start with.***“
and
***”***Basically, only God can save us. We do not have free will – free will is a myth invented by men to make themselves feel more important than they are. This means no person can choose to be saved."
This guy seems to make alot of statements without backing them up.

Matt
[/quote]

I have no problem with this quote. It is basically the teaching of the Church that we are saved by God’s initiative through grace.

In speaking about the merit that leads to salvation, the Catechism says:

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life

.

Don’t forget what St. Paul tells us in 1Timothy 2:4 that God “desires **all ** men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”


#4

[quote=english_matt]I came across this today
christiandoctrine.net/seeking_god/is_god_calling_you_web.htm

I’d like your thoughts on these quotes
"no person can seek God unless He places such a desire in his/her heart to start with."
[/quote]

This is Catholic doctrine. A good place to read the
Council of Trent decrees on Justification with commentary is here: [***ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ195.HTM***](“http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ195.HTM”)

What the website you quoted probably doesn’t say is that God wills all people to be saved, so His grace is offered to everyone, not just a select few, but some of us refuse to accept it (as I did for many years).

and ***"***Basically, only God can save us. We do not have free will – free will is a myth invented by men to make themselves feel more important than they are. This means no person can choose to be saved."

True, only God can save us. We can’t save ourselves. But the part about free will is Luther’s teaching, followed by Calvin and others and many thousands of Protestant denominations***.*** Here’s Luther:

reformed.org/documents/Table_talk/table_talk.html
click on Free Will

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!


#5

Anybody knows where can I find the text of the catholic lutheran agreement on salvation?


#6

[quote=Asking]Anybody knows where can I find the text of the catholic lutheran agreement on salvation?
[/quote]

Here 'tis:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=441

JMJ Jay


#7

I am kind of puzzled:confused:

I read in the Bible all kinds of verses that say we can know we are saved. If we can’t know for sure then what are we actually supposed to believe?

Just a few examples:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:39-40 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


#8

[quote=New Heart]I am kind of puzzled:confused:

I read in the Bible all kinds of verses that say we can know we are saved. If we can’t know for sure then what are we actually supposed to believe?

Just a few examples:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:39-40 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
[/quote]

You can have a moral certainty of salvation, but not an absolute one. That is to say, if you perservere in following Jesus, if you don’t fall away, you can trust Him to save you. If you reject Him at some future point, or commit a mortal sin (which is very specific in its import, ie, a serious violation of the commandments, deliberately made, with the intent to do so) and die in that sin (which is a rejection of Him and His Covenant) then, no, you have no assurance of salvation, but rather of everlasting condemnation. God never contravenes our free will. We may reject Him, slap His Hand away, and strike out on our own at any time. Since no one can predict the future, one cannot say that they will never loose their salvation. Jesus said that he who perservered to the end would be saved (perservered in loving Him, trusting Him, obeying Him, following Him). You can have a moral certainty, but not an absolute one. All the verses you cite presume perserverance. God bless! Perservere! Pray for me and I will pray for you!


#9

Many of the differences (Catholic teaching on Salvation, vs Protestants ones - yes plural) are a result of who we trust for our Salvation. Catholic hope is in Christ’s promise(s). However, much of the Protestant thought seems to put their confidence in what they do.


#10

Protestants say just the opposite MrS, that we catholics put our confidence in ourselves, that we try to work our way to heaven, and that they just have faith in Jesus.

I think there is a misunderstanding because Faith isnt just to acknowledge Jesus is the son of God, the Christ, the demons do that too, true faith in Christ involves works, trying to be like Jesus.


#11

[quote=Lilyofthevalley]I suppose that’s called Calvinism. :cool: They have some interesting arguments to support their claim.
[/quote]

What Catholics mean by free will seems not to be quite what Calvinists mean by it, however


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